LEVINE:

Today is May 21st, 1998. I'm here in Waterville, Maine, with Dorothy Raymond, who was stationed at Ellis Island in the Coast Guards from March 22 nd , 1946 until her discharge from the Coast Guards on July 25 th , 1947. This is Janet Levine for the National Park Service. Well, okay, if we could start maybe for the tape, if you just repeat your birth date and where you were born.

RAYMOND:

Well, my birth date is November 11 th , 1917 and I was born in New York City.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, and did you stay in New York City? Did you grow up in New York City?

RAYMOND:

No, I grew up in Huntington on Long Island.

LEVINE:

Long Island, uh-huh. Oh, and so you had completed high school when you signed up for the Coast Guard?

RAYMOND:

Well, I'd done more than that. I'd completed college, and for a short time I worked at the Western Electric Company in New York City, and an interesting there was that I was in charge of — I guess it would be approving, sending out the different radio tubes and things and across my desk at that point there came a — a request for the U.S.S. Phoenix, which was a cruiser in the Pacific, and my brother was on that — on that cruiser.

LEVINE:

Wow.

RAYMOND:

He had been at Pearl Harbor.

LEVINE:

So what year was that then?

RAYMOND:

Well, that would have been probably shortly after Pearl Harbor.

LEVINE:

Pearl Harbor.

RAYMOND:

Because after I went — see, when I finished college, there were no jobs. I was going to be a high school. So I went to Teacher's College, Columbia, and got my Master's in student personnel administration. But then I still didn't get a job, so I took the job at Western Electric, and that's so — so I graduated from college in '39. I got my Master's in '40, so it was shortly sometime in — well, it must have been early '42 because Pearl Harbor would have been in December. But anyway, so then people got drafted and since my field was history, I got a job right away, of course, because the people, you know, who were teaching history were mostly men.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

So I got a job in Freeport, Long Island, and then from there I decided to join, so I joined the SPARS.

LEVINE:

Well, what made you decide to join?

RAYMOND:

Well, I think as the war kept going on and on and on, I just thought I ought to do more.

LEVINE:

Um. Uh-hmm. And did you have a sense of what you'd be doing in the Coast Guard?

RAYMOND:

No, you didn't know. I went to the Academy and I thought I was very fortunate, having grown up in New York, to be transferred to San Diego, which was a wonderful climate. In fact, it was so wonderful that too many people went back.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

Eh.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. So how long were you in San Diego?

RAYMOND:

Well, I think — I should have looked this up. I think I — I guess that doesn't say. I —

LEVINE:

No, it just says you were coming from there.

RAYMOND:

I think I joined — well, I had a little paper here maybe. Maybe this will tell me. They had — I had this little newsletter from Ellis Island announcing my arrival.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

And it said that I had been in from September, but whatever it is, it's wrong.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

Let's see. Well, I went on active duty on May 22 nd , 1944.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

Okay?

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

And on the — I just was surprised that I had that. When I looked for my uniform and all, which I knew I still had, I found that. It's on the second page I think and there's some other names of women who I don't remember them at all. They must have been in another section of the place.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

But you might be able to track them down sometime.

LEVINE:

Now, what does SPARS stand for?

RAYMOND:

Oh —

LEVINE:

Do you know?

RAYMOND:

You should ask me.

LEVINE:

Oh, I'm sorry.

RAYMOND:

I must have known. Oh, Semper Paratus, [PH] Always Ready.

LEVINE:

[Laughs]

RAYMOND:

The Coast Guard motto.

LEVINE:

I see. Okay, so — so how did it happen that you got tran — first of all, what were you doing in San Diego in the Coast Guard?

RAYMOND:

Well, they had — they had a hotel that they turned into a barracks. I think it was called the Embassy Hotel and I was with another — another officer. We were in charge of that and we — so we had duty there run — sort of running it.

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

And so then, when the far end — you know, came toward the end there, I decided I would rather be back. I asked for a transfer and of course they were glad to do those things then, I guess. Anyway, so I got transferred, but I didn't know I was going to Ellis Island. They just transferred me to New York.

LEVINE:

I see. So when you got to New York then what happened?

RAYMOND:

Well, then I just — then I was in a — I can't remember the name of the hotel that was at that point, but at any rate, I reported there and then I received the orders for Ellis Island, and every morning bright and early a seaman would arrive in a jeep, on open jeep and drive me over to the slip where the ferry was and then I would take the ferry over to Ellis Island. And as I remember that, the officers were on one deck and the enlisted people were on the other and I was the only woman, you know, on that —

LEVINE:

Ferry.

RAYMOND:

That I saw on that ferry.

LEVINE:

Hmm. Did Ellis Island have a reputation, I mean, being you know, stationed at Ellis Island, was that a look a good thing or was there any feeling that you —

RAYMOND:

I don't know. I don't recall it was anything.

LEVINE:

Yeah, uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

I don't know. I didn't even realize the Coast Guard — well, I might have known the Coast Guard was there. I don't really know.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

Ellis Island to me had always been thought of as where the immigrants came in. My family — both my mother and father had come through Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

Oh, where were they coming from?

RAYMOND:

Oh, my mother from England and my father from Northern Ireland.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

They weren't married then. They came with their — well, he came alone, but she had come with her family.

LEVINE:

Oh, I see. So — so were your family in Huntington then when you came back?

RAYMOND:

They were in Huntington.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, uh-huh. So as far as you know, you were the only women there.

RAYMOND:

Well —

LEVINE:

Even though there were some others.

RAYMOND:

Obviously there were others here and this little article about — I think there's an article in here about the men taking their physicals to get out, you know, and it said something about pharm — "pharmacist mates would be nearby, but don't worry, they're not going to do the examination." [Laughs]

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

But —

LEVINE:

So — so when you got to Ellis Island what — what were you assigned to and what did you do?

RAYMOND:

Okay, that — the whole time I was there all I ever remember about it was I was in an office with a desk and the interesting thing about it is I never did see a Coast Guardsman, except the people I worked with. The — it — the people I was seeing were soldiers coming back from the European theater and they came in and my job was to set up transportation for them to go home, or if they weren't going home, to make sure that wherever they were going was approved, and I did that.

LEVINE:

I see. So were these wounded soldiers?

RAYMOND:

No, they were the — they were coming — that was to be discharged. That — we — I was probably the last person they saw in the whole — after they had had their physical and done all the other things, then they came to get their transportation.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, and so what were you doing, like arranging trains and —

RAYMOND:

Oh, yes, I had all kinds of books and schedules. It was trains, that's all it was.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

And, in fact, a funny thing happened. I can't remember whether it was Penn Station or Grand Central, but I think it was Grand Central. I was going somewhere myself one day and I was walking across the station and there were a whole group of soldiers waiting to go in to board a train and they recognized me and they all started yelling, waving and yelling, "Good-bye, Lieutenant. Bye, Lieutenant," because they always thought of me as a Lieutenant, you know, rather than an ensign. Kind of embarrassing. Everybody was looking. [Laughs]

LEVINE:

So in other words, you saw sailors and soldiers?

RAYMOND:

Beg pardon?

LEVINE:

Did you see sailors and soldiers?

RAYMOND:

I only — for some reason I only saw the soldiers. I never saw any of — I — I'm not even sure the Coast Guardsman were discharged at that place. I'm not certain about that because I think there was something in here that said they went somewhere else.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

But you might look at it.

LEVINE:

Okay, yeah, I would like to read that. Well, as far as your awareness of what was going on at Ellis Island at that time, aside from you, what were the other Coast Guard people sort of in your unit, what were they doing?

RAYMOND:

Well, I think that they had — you know, they were interviewing, telling them — well, telling them what — well, I really — I assume if they had problems or telling them about what their pay would be and — and what their--

LEVINE:

Sort of a discharge interview.

RAYMOND:

Discharge, right. As far as I know, and of course there was a section where they had their physicals and as far as I know, that whole — we were all doing that, but that's all I know.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

RAYMOND:

As I say, I had a very — I get the impression that I was busy the whole time reading railroad schedules and everything. I really did — and the funny thing about it is I can't even remember having lunch and I'm sure I must have stopped for lunch, but I just don't remember that.

LEVINE:

Were these sailors — soldiers coming in in large numbers?

RAYMOND:

Oh, right. There was — you know, like you'd see one right after another. I don't know — I mean I didn't actually see them land there, but I assume they were coming over in ships. So you'd get a couple a hundred or more at a time.

LEVINE:

Wow.

RAYMOND:

And I don't know how long — how many — how long it took them to go through all that. Three or four days, at least, I would think.

LEVINE:

Were some of them — were they sleeping on Ellis Island?

RAYMOND:

Well, they must have been.

LEVINE:

While they were going through everything?

RAYMOND:

Right, they must have been.

LEVINE:

Huh.

RAYMOND:

Well, I say they must have been. They could have been sleeping on their own ship, but I doubt it.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

I really don't know.

LEVINE:

Wow. And how many Coast Guard people were in your unit, like that you —

RAYMOND:

Well, you know, that I can't remember. I've been trying to think about that, and I can't — I really can't remember. I just know that I was — the way — the way — the way I visualize the place where I was, I was facing the door because I was the one they were all coming to see and the other people were like working off this area. Now, what they all were doing, I don't know.

LEVINE:

Do you remember if you were in that main building where the great hall is?

RAYMOND:

Yeah, see, that I don't — I can't — no recollection of which building it was.

LEVINE:

Where you were. Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

And I suppose at the time it was all partitioned off in various ways, I guess. I don't really know.

LEVINE:

Hmm. Did you see anything of immigrants coming through after the war?

RAYMOND:

No. No.

LEVINE:

No. And how about deportees or people who returned?

RAYMOND:

I didn't see any civilians at all.

LEVINE:

Okay. Wow.

RAYMOND:

No.

LEVINE:

So you — there wasn't — there wasn't an operating kitchen, for example, that you were aware of? That you — a staff eating —

RAYMOND:

Well, there must have been there because surely I had lunch. There must have been something.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

RAYMOND:

Well, and also for all those soldiers.

LEVINE:

Right.

RAYMOND:

Who had to eat.

LEVINE:

There [unclear] a dining room.

RAYMOND:

So I mean there must have been a place, but I don't have any recollection. I know — I remember eating back — I remember eating breakfast and having dinner back at the hotel because in the — at whatever time — I don't know what it would be — that I ended my job, I'd come over on the ferry and a seaman would be there in a jeep to take me back to the hotel.

LEVINE:

And did you live in this hotel the whole time while you —

RAYMOND:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

What was the name of it?

RAYMOND:

That I cannot remember.

LEVINE:

Can you remember where in the city it was?

RAYMOND:

I can't remember — I don't — I just have no recollection.

LEVINE:

Huh. Interesting. So were there other Coast Guard people living in there?

RAYMOND:

Oh, yes. Oh, there was — there were — I don't know where they were stationed. They — the — there were some officers there I know, but there were a lot of enlisted people and they ran the — you know, the mess there. They were all busy serving food and all that. So — but, you know, I spent very little on — of my free time — being in New York City, I wasn't going to sit around in a hotel every night. So —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. Were there other hotels that had —

RAYMOND:

I really don't know.

LEVINE:

And how about Governor's Island? Did you know anything about that because Coast Guard just left there. They would have been —

RAYMOND:

Well, I don't — see, I don't really know anything about that. I told you — told you, I'm very bad about memory.

LEVINE:

No. No, just what you're remembering is important.

RAYMOND:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

That, you know, these discharge interviews or whatever they were, were taking place there in great numbers. I didn't realize that before.

RAYMOND:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

So — and how was this — what are the — was Ellis Island in disrepair or did you — was there anything about it at the time —

RAYMOND:

I can't remember a thing about it. I — the only thing I can remember is that we always, always admired the Statute of Liberty on the way over.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, and let's see. Ah, were there — well, I guess there would have been people visiting the Statue of Liberty during the day, right?

RAYMOND:

Oh, I would doubt it. I don't know that. I don't know. I really don't know.

LEVINE:

Yeah. Okay, well, let's see. So — so during that period you — you pretty much had the same — you were doing the same kind of work for that whole stand?

RAYMOND:

The whole time. Right.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, and then did — and you were discharged at the end of that. So you left the Coast Guards then?

RAYMOND:

Yes. Well, actually I was discharged at Ellis Island, as far as I know. I think. I don't remember going anywhere else, but maybe I — you know, to have to go through all that, but I really can't tell you for sure.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Well, how about like the — the transportation arrangements. Were they — they were going to all parts of the United States?

RAYMOND:

Oh, yes.

LEVINE:

Is that what you had to do? Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

Yeah. Every place you could think of. I don't know how I learned how to do it. I think I must have just learned it on the job.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

[Clears throat] You know, sometimes I didn't know. They would have to tell me the nearest — the nearest place to where it was that they lived.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, and then did you provide them with tickets or how did that work?

RAYMOND:

Well, you know, that I can't remember.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

RAYMOND:

I — I just don't know whether I provided — I don't recall handling tickets. Maybe I gave them some paper that said that this was okay and somebody else gave them the ticket. I don't really know.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. So did the government pay for these, do you think?

RAYMOND:

Well, I think — I think they paid if they were going home. If they weren't going right — if they weren't going — I think you had to go back to where you enlisted and I think if you didn't, I don't think they — I think they gave you a lower rate, but I don't think they paid.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

Because I think too many people would decide to go every which way.

LEVINE:

Right. Yeah. So — so do you have any — any particularly — any that stick out in your mind of situations dealing with somebody trying to get them to where he was going [unclear]?

RAYMOND:

Well, no, I can't think of anything.

LEVINE:

But it sounds like it was a very big operation, I mean as far as in terms of people who were passing through there

RAYMOND:

Oh, yes, uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

Yeah. Do you remember the people you worked with at all?

RAYMOND:

No. I was trying to remember that and I can't. I might — the only person I can remember and I can't remember his name that I worked with in a way, not — not exactly, but he was the closest one to where I was, was some Lieutenant Commander and all I remember about him was he was concerned because, you know, during the war a lot of the people were temporarily — they were temporarily made officers.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

And he was a Lieutenant Commander and he was going to be knocked down to whatever he was before, like a Sergeant or something and he wasn't happy about that.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

RAYMOND:

So what I remember about him is him telling me his sad stories, but I can't remember his name. I can't remember his name. [Laughs]

LEVINE:

And what was it like at Ellis Island, but also the rest of the time in the Coast Guards being a — being a woman in a male world, you might as well say?

RAYMOND:

Uh-huh. Well, guess I don't recall there was any — I suppose — you know, there — it was different then than the way it is now, I think. A lot different.

LEVINE:

In what ways do you think?

RAYMOND:

Well, I mean we — I don't recall — I read about all these different things where women feel that they are being harassed and all like that. Now, maybe some of them were, but I don't recall anything like that and I was dealing — you know, I was dealing with a hotel full of SPARS and when they had problems, you know, they would come to you. I don't recall any of them coming to me with any kind of problems like that. The SPARS there, by the way, they worked down on the Air Base and for the most part they were packing the parachutes.

LEVINE:

What Air Base?

RAYMOND:

Down — well, the Coronado. See, the Coronado — the Coast Guard Air Base in San Diego was on Coronado, so they would be taken down in a bus and they, most of them were packing parachutes and one of the problems — well, I don't suppose it was a problem really to them, but — but as I understand it, it used to be that the parachute riggers had to actually have jumped. Whereas, the SPARS did not have to. So you know, it makes a difference in the way you're packing a parachute for somebody. It better be right!

LEVINE:

Yeah. DR But anyway, that's —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. Now —

RAYMOND:

I can tell you, this is kind of interesting to me, as I think back over it. On the way, I used to go down there from time-to-time. Don't ask me why, and on the way I used to see on the Air — by the Air Base there I used to see these airplanes without — without any propellers. You see, they had jets, but we didn't know it.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

And so we used to wonder how those planes could go. That's how — that's how long ago this was. [Laughs]

LEVINE:

Wow. Uh-huh. Wow. Now, the SPARS, is that like a unit within. I mean, how do the — how does the SPARS — how do the SPARS relate —

RAYMOND:

To the rest of the Coast Guard?

LEVINE:

Rest of the Coast Guard.

RAYMOND:

I think they called it the Women's Reserve or something. I don't really know.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

RAYMOND:

It's sort of like well, the same connection I guess that the WAVES have with the Navy.

LEVINE:

Or WACS.

RAYMOND:

I don't know.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Well, it's — it's sort of unusual for a woman to feel that she wanted to do something for the war effort and to join the service. It strikes me as — do you know why you thought of that or —

RAYMOND:

You mean why?

LEVINE:

Yeah.

RAYMOND:

Well, I mean people were being drafted and a lot — a lot of people I knew were already there. My brother was there. It was the main topic of conversation at home all the time. In fact, everywhere around, that's what everybody talked about.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

And my main duties as a teacher, well, I was teaching in Freeport High School and there was a Grumond Air — Air — what would you call it? A factory or something, making airplanes, and I was teaching American history in high school and my student — the students — to begin with, the place was over crowded. I not only — you know, today they talk about cutting down the size of classes. I think there were forty seats in a classroom, and I would have kids standing around.

LEVINE:

Wow.

RAYMOND:

Or with extra chairs, and interestingly enough, I don't recall that we had any problem with attendance the way they — today I don't think they would have come. But the thing that was happening was the boys particularly were working over at the Grumond Factory and they would come in and they would be half asleep. But they came because they wanted to graduate and my only duties in connection with the war, that I can remember, was giving out the ration coupons. Teachers were called upon to do that. We had to check what people told us and, you know, everything was rationed. Shoes, gasoline, just name it. You had a little coupon book and you used — if you needed a pair of shoes, you were lucky if you still had your coupon. And the other thing I did, which teachers did, was to be an Air Raid Warden and every time we had an air raid — well, where I was it was mostly — it wasn't a real air raid, but we still had to go through the motions as though it were.

LEVINE:

Where did you have to go?

RAYMOND:

Well — well, wherever your assignment was. You'd run out onto the streets. You're supposed to go and help people, I don't know. Tell them to get under cover and so on.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Now, when you were passing out the coupons, was that to community people?

RAYMOND:

Well, yeah, every — every person in the whole United States, except those in the service, had to have a coupon book. I have one somewhere. I just came upon it. I don't know where it is now.

LEVINE:

But did it go to the head of household? Is that who it went to?

RAYMOND:

Well, I don't re — well, I don't quite — I don't remember how it worked out with children, but I do know that obviously it cut down on cars. I know our — in my family we couldn't use the car very much and you had a big A on the windshield showing that that was one that, you know, was not necessary for anything, and you had gas coupons. So when you got to the end of them, you no longer had any — any gas. And as I say, you had shoes and I don't know whether there was sugar. I can't remember all the things.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

RAYMOND:

But anyway, that — you — I only mention that because as far as the war was concerned, those are the only two things I was doing. I didn't think that was very important.

LEVINE:

I see. Oh, I see [unclear].

RAYMOND:

And so I guess I got caught up in the patri-ism, patriotism and all the rest. I don't know.

LEVINE:

Hmm. Hmm. Was your — was your family hard hit by the Depression and then the war rationing and everything? I mean —

RAYMOND:

Well, probably no more than any — than anybody else.

LEVINE:

Than anybody else. Hmmm.

RAYMOND:

It sort of, you know, it puts me and my husband in the same generation of, you know, you don't just go out and buy something unless you really need it. If you — if something is usable and it breaks, try to fix it. Today you can't fix anything, that's the trouble.

LEVINE:

Right, they're built [unclear].

RAYMOND:

So whether you have the money today or not, you're — I think you're more inclined to think twice before you go out and spend it foolishly.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. Uh-hmm. And do you remember your mother and father — I mean, they both had immigrated here and then they had a son and then a daughter working in the military for this country. Did they ever talk about that or —

RAYMOND:

Well, it was on the same side, put it that way.

LEVINE:

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Did they become citizens, your parents?

RAYMOND:

Oh, yes.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Yeah. Um, let's see. So —

RAYMOND:

I'll tell you an interesting thing about that, though. My mother became a citizen. Back then and they changed it not too long long ago, I don't think, but back then if you were a child and your father became a citizen, you automatically became a citizen. So she always liked to say that she did not have to renounce the King. [Laughs] [END OF SIDE A] [BEGIN SIDE B]

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. [Laughs] Huh. Well, so what — did you socialize much with the Coast Guard people?

RAYMOND:

Well, in San Diego.

LEVINE:

When you were in New York, did you?

RAYMOND:

Well, I don't recall, to tell you the truth. I don't — I don't recall because I don't know what I did in New York. I just can't — I have no picture of it. I can remember going out to restaurants and all and probably went out with other Coast Guard or other SPARS. Somehow, I don't think — but in San Diego where I was longer and I met more people, I — I socialized with Naval Air. There was a Naval Air Base there and we used to go out there and, oh, what do they call it? The SOS or whatever? They had different place — places and buildings where service people could go and you'd go and meet — meet people and just go out on a date. It was a lot of the people you never — maybe you saw them once and they shipped out or something.

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

You just didn't see them again.

LEVINE:

I see. When you look back on your — on your career in the Coast Guard now, how — how do you think about it? I mean what — is there anything about it that you're really glad that, you know, you had that experience or is there anything — I mean do you — how do you consider it as part of your life, or that phase of your life, I should say?

RAYMOND:

Well, I think I'm glad I did it. One of the bonuses, of course, was that as — and I didn't think — I didn't even know about this when I went in. I didn't even — I don't know whether anybody did, but the bonus was of the GI Bill, and then I went onto Temple University because I had been — I was far enough, having already had a Master's Degree, I was far enough along, you see, so that I could — I got through my Doctorate with the GI Bill.

LEVINE:

Oh, wonderful.

RAYMOND:

So did my husband.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Now, what — what did — what is your Doctorate in?

RAYMOND:

It's in psychology.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

But my specialty — it's in reading. My specialty is reading disabilities, learning disabilities.

LEVINE:

And you went to Temple?

RAYMOND:

Temple. Had a — I picked it particularly because they — the head of the department there was the most, at the time, most noted person —

LEVINE:

In that field.

RAYMOND:

Connected with reading disabilities.

LEVINE:

Is this in Philadelphia, Temple?

RAYMOND:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

RAYMOND:

I think it still has a clinic that's noted.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. I think of it as a medical school. Is it a medical school, too?

RAYMOND:

Well, it also — it has a medical school.

LEVINE:

Yeah, uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

It's also just a Liberal Arts College.

LEVINE:

I see, uh-huh. Wow. So then — then where did you go after you got out of the service?

RAYMOND:

Where did I go? Well, I guess you — then, well, then again I — at first I thought I was — see, I didn't go right back to college. What I was going to do was teach and of course at that point, everybody was — all the men were coming out, so I didn't get a chance to get a teaching job. At least that's — everywhere I went, I had competition, but I did get a job in — through a teacher's agency in Mexico and I taught there for two years.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

RAYMOND:

At the — for the Celenese Corporation was building a plant and they needed a teacher, two teachers actually, for the children of the engineers who were building the plant — who were supervising the building of the plant.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

RAYMOND:

So — and in this little school, the engineers who were Mexicans, their children were also allowed to be in the school. So it was very interesting.

LEVINE:

Was — were there a lot of teachers, or —

RAYMOND:

Just — just two of us.

LEVINE:

So you were teaching all grades?

RAYMOND:

Yeah, all grades. Actually, we divided it up and the other teacher mostly took the younger children. Oh, you know, it was a non — you know, I had every — well, there weren't very many children, but — but

LEVINE:

There was a range.

RAYMOND:

Each one would be in a different place, and I was teaching. I not only was a history major, I was a double major. I had a math major, so I taught the math all the way — all the way through the high school and then the history. But I also taught the other subjects, too.

LEVINE:

Oh, wow, that was quite a —

RAYMOND:

So it was very interesting.

LEVINE:

Yeah, I bet.

RAYMOND:

Very interesting.

LEVINE:

So you did that for two years?

RAYMOND:

Yeah, and then I — but then I decided, you know, "I'm wasting my time. I better get back to college," and so that's what I did.

LEVINE:

You said that people — I guess people didn't realize there would be a GI Bill, at first.

RAYMOND:

Well, if they did — I — I mean I--maybe other people knew, but I didn't and I didn't focus on it. I mean it's like today you walk — you go down — downtown today and you see a big sign by the Army recruiting, I think they're giving sixty thousand dollars and they tell you, you know, that you're going to get all these benefits. Well, maybe they did say that, but if they did, I — it escaped me.

LEVINE:

It wasn't a reason.

RAYMOND:

I didn't do it for that reason.

LEVINE:

Right, uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

No.

LEVINE:

So, okay. So then you decided you'd get back to college and did you know you were going to specialize in the reading —

RAYMOND:

I had made that decision back when I was teaching high school and discovered that most of the kids couldn't read the history book.

LEVINE:

Wow, in Huntington Long Island.

RAYMOND:

No, that was in Freeport.

LEVINE:

In Freeport.

RAYMOND:

And, you know, they were — that time the — the high school people, whoever, I don't know. The administration would decide that's the book and — and it was pretty high level reading and I discovered an awful lot of them couldn't even read it, so — because I was unaware of all these reading problems, you know. You go through school, you can't think of — of — maybe today's children will know more because it's not hidden as much as it used to be.

LEVINE:

Right.

RAYMOND:

But I didn't know anything about it.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

So anyway, that's what I did.

LEVINE:

So you — then you chose to go to Temple because of the professor who was top in the field.

RAYMOND:

Right. Actually, I went to — I don't think — I didn't take any courses, but I got a job in a reading clinic in Miami because my parents by this time had moved to Miami, and I went over there and from there is when I decided I would go to Temple.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. So were there a lot of other people on the GI Bill when you were at Temple?

RAYMOND:

Probably.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

It wasn't — I suppose. I don't recall.

LEVINE:

But it wasn't like heavily your class is —

RAYMOND:

Well, it could have been, but I mean you wouldn't know.

LEVINE:

You wouldn't know.

RAYMOND:

How would you know, you know? The way you got it. You received a check. You received a voucher or whatever to buy your books. So —

LEVINE:

I see.

RAYMOND:

I don't know whether the other people —

LEVINE:

Well, I suppose they would have been a little older, maybe. Well, maybe not.

RAYMOND:

I don't know.

LEVINE:

I don't know.

RAYMOND:

I mean I'm sure there were a lot of people.

LEVINE:

So then you — you did get your Ph.D. and then where did you go?

RAYMOND:

Well, then I got married.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, and how did you meet your husband?

RAYMOND:

Oh, well, I — what I did was I got a job in Delaware and my husband to be was teaching in Delaware.

LEVINE:

Oh, and he was also in the — out of — just out of the service?

RAYMOND:

Well, he was out of the service, too. He had gone to Harvard and he was teaching history. In fact, we were both still working on our degrees while we were both at Delaware and then we got married and he got a job up here. There's a college here, Colby College.

LEVINE:

Yeah, uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

And he got a job there.

LEVINE:

Teaching history?

RAYMOND:

Teaching history, which was supposed to be temporary and here we still are.

LEVINE:

Oh.

RAYMOND:

And he retired three years ago, and I started working in the public schools here.

LEVINE:

Oh. Teaching history? No, the learning disorder.

RAYMOND:

The reading — well, school psychologist and — and supervisor of the reading program.

LEVINE:

Oh, wonderful.

RAYMOND:

So that's really all that, but it has nothing to do with being a SPAR. [Laughs]

LEVINE:

Well, do — do you have any contact with any other SPARS?

RAYMOND:

Well, I — for a long time I did, but you know, I don't know if this ever happens to you, but for a long time I exchanged Christmas cards, if nothing else and then all of a sudden one Christmas you wouldn't get a card. So I would send another the next Christmas or I'd write a letter and I'd get no response. Then I would really write a letter and put my return address and say, "Please tell me," and all. No response. So I've lost them, but I must say, I do — now that you mention it, I — I still — one is not SPAR. She's — she was an Army nurses, lives in Connecticut. I still communicate with her. Another one lives in Arizona and I think she was a SPAR and so we still communicate.

LEVINE:

Nice.

RAYMOND:

Just at Christmas time.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

But the other people, as I say, I had quite a few I used to do that with and I guess they died and that's — nobody tells you.

LEVINE:

Well, I guess they could move and if it was not within the six months before Christmas, I don't think they forward it. Did you get these things back or you —

RAYMOND:

No, but that — that — no, but —

LEVINE:

These letters?

RAYMOND:

You know, if they move, then why didn't they send me a card? I didn't move. [Laughs]

LEVINE:

Yeah, I know.

RAYMOND:

No, I think things like that happened.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Right. Wow. Okay, is there anything else you can think of about maybe downtown Manhattan around the Battery Park when — when you were there or anything else descriptive about Ellis Island or the trips over? Or any other things that you might —

RAYMOND:

All I can remember is it was bitterly cold riding in that jeep and getting on that ferry.

LEVINE:

Was it the big ferry. Like I don't know if you're familiar with the Circle Line. It's sort of a big boat that —

RAYMOND:

Well, it was like a — I mean, it was a ferry. It wasn't — it wasn't a little boat.

LEVINE:

It wasn't a small boat.

RAYMOND:

It was a actual ferry.

LEVINE:

So there were that many — well, there were — it couldn't have been very full, though.

RAYMOND:

Well, I don't know. I don't know. I think it mentions something about here, even if it had a name, but — but I don't know how full it was. It wasn't very full on the deck that I was on.

LEVINE:

Yeah. But then probably it was that same ferry that then brought the people who were being discharged.

RAYMOND:

I think it — oh, I don't — no, I don't think that ferry had anything to do with the people being discharged.

LEVINE:

You see, because usually the big boats, the big ships don't dock at Ellis Island. They let people off at Battery Park.

RAYMOND:

Yeah, right.

LEVINE:

Then they take a ferry over.

RAYMOND:

Well, maybe it did. I — I really don't know. I never saw — I never saw anybody coming or going, you know, except myself and probably because I — I wasn't near enough to see that.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

So I really don't know. I told you I don't have a very good memory.

LEVINE:

No, you've provided — you've provided a lot of interesting information. Okay, is there anything else that you can think of? Have you been back there at all since?

RAYMOND:

No.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, yeah.

RAYMOND:

To Ellis Island, you mean?

LEVINE:

Yeah.

RAYMOND:

No. No, but I had a cousin who — well, she wouldn't have gone I don't think, only — only there were relatives come over. I still have relatives in — in different parts of the world and these people had come and she — that's one of the things you do in New York now is to go over, and she got all excited about it, and brought back a whole lot of papers where — that we should fill out in order to have our parents' names on —

LEVINE:

On the Wall of Honor.

RAYMOND:

The thing on the wall. But so far I haven't done anything with the — with the papers. But — but I haven't — I haven't gone back.

LEVINE:

Well —

RAYMOND:

This article showed up and unfortunately I didn't put a date on this piece of paper, but it tells about the Coast Guard leaving Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

Oh, great. Oh, that's really good. Okay. Well, let me just remark for the tape that we're going to have some items, one's a newsletter and then —

RAYMOND:

Those are my orders.

LEVINE:

Your orders and this — this newspaper article.

RAYMOND:

And this — and this is the Weekly — what did they call it? The Weekly Log that was put out.

LEVINE:

Oh, great. At Ellis Island?

RAYMOND:

For everybody at Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

Right. Okay, we're going to have those in Dorothy Raymond's file in the Oral History Office.

RAYMOND:

Now, I don't know if you want any part of my uniform, but I do have it here.

LEVINE:

If you want to donate it, I think we'd love to have it.

RAYMOND:

Well —

LEVINE:

Let me just close off here.

RAYMOND:

Okay.

LEVINE:

I've been speaking with Dorothy McLean Raymond who came — who was stationed at Ellis Island from March 1946 to July 1947 and was responsible for arranging for the transportation of returning soldiers. And today is May 21 st , 1998. This is Janet Levine for the National Park Service and we're here in Waterville, Maine and I'm signing off. [tape off/on] Just ask a couple of questions about the SPARS.

RAYMOND:

Okay.

LEVINE:

And about, you know, what your training was like as a SPAR.

RAYMOND:

Well, you know, I can't even remember how long I was there, but — well, we had barracks, okay?

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

And — with bunks. About four people in each room, probably, and they all had to be — everything had to be made a certain way, of course, and they were — we would come out. You know, according to time and everything, and you would stand just like in the Army. You'd stand in line and everything and they'd call the role and then you would march. Anywhere you went, you marched, and we had classes to teach us the history of the Coast Guard and different things like whatever was pertinent or whatever they thought was pertinent. And when we went to — they would have chapel and we were told that we had to be very careful because the men were there, too, but we were not to look, and the thing that they would point out to us was that — that they would be — the officers would be standing in the back and if we moved — if we turned to look, they could tell because our hat — by our hat that we were looking. They were, you know. And then once, just once we were taken out on a ship so that we could see what it was like to be on a ship.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

And we were told then that we were not to look or certainly not talk or anything to any — and I think the men were probably told the same thing because nobody dared, you know, move. And we had a — one thing that really upset a lot of the girls was that we had a swimming test. We had to swim the length of a — of the pool and some of them couldn't do that. Frankly, I don't really know whatever happened to them, whether they got — couldn't — whether they had to pass it or I don't really know.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

RAYMOND:

I was fortunate to be able to swim, so I just took off and went. [Laughs]

LEVINE:

So what — what were the other places —

RAYMOND:

They gave us — we even had a regulation bathing suit. You can imagine what that looked like.

LEVINE:

Oh, my gosh. Wow. What were the other places where SPARS were screened out during training?

RAYMOND:

During the training? Well, as far as I know, the officers were only at the Coast Guard Academy. Now, there was a place at Palm Beach for the enlisted people, but I don't — I don't think the officers were anywhere except the Coast Guard Academy in New London, Connecticut. But from the — from the day we arrived, I can remember arriving there and no sooner arriver than — than having to stand out in formation, everybody dressed still in civilian clothes, of course, every which way, and we were — we were always lined up by size and I was always the last one practically. And you know, I have — I don't know if you'd be interested in it or not but I have an eight millimeter film of the commissioning exercises.

LEVINE:

Really?

RAYMOND:

Because my father — my mother and father came to the commissioning and they — I think it's eight mili — I mean, I don't think it's a six — it may have been sixteen, but it wasn't — wouldn't matter. I think it's an eight millimeter color film showing the commissioning exercises when I got my commission.

LEVINE:

Wow, and when was that?

RAYMOND:

Whenever — just before I —

LEVINE:

Just before that?

RAYMOND:

Before that, I guess.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, was it in San Diego or was it —

RAYMOND:

No, the Coast Guard Academy.

LEVINE:

Oh, in Connecticut, uh-huh. Yeah, I mean —

RAYMOND:

What I did with it, I have to hunt it up and send it to you. What I did with it was I took — in fact, it may be on sixteen because my father took pictures from the time I was little and — but back then you only had a sixteen millimeter camera and when I — I decided a few years ago that I was going to lose all this — I couldn't even find a sixteen millimeter projector anymore, and I had my own eight millimeter one, but I couldn't find one. So I took it all down — I did the best I could to get it in some kind of chronological order and I just took it down and had them make a videotape of it. So —

LEVINE:

Oh, so it's on video.

RAYMOND:

So I have a videotape of everything and if I had been editing it, the videotape, I would not have been in the whole ceremony, which he took from beginning to end.

LEVINE:

That could be valuable, though.

RAYMOND:

He was allowed to go up on a — some top — I don't know, a roof of a building or something.

LEVINE:

Oh, I see.

RAYMOND:

And he took it from there.

LEVINE:

Wow. Well, that could be quite valuable. 1946, a commissioning ceremony. I mean the whole thing.

RAYMOND:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

Might be worth —

RAYMOND:

Now, I don't know what to do with it.

LEVINE:

I'm wondering if the Coast Guard has a museum or a place where they collect Coast Guard —

RAYMOND:

I don't know. When they made the women's memorial down in Washington, I didn't bother to follow it up, but I did write to somebody and I told them I had all this stuff, were they interested? But nobody answered the letter, so I decided, well, forget it. So I don't know whether it's anything.

LEVINE:

Well, let me — let me make some inquiries about — about the videotape.

RAYMOND:

Okay.

LEVINE:

But also — but I would like to take these.

RAYMOND:

What I would be — what I would be giving would be the actual film.

LEVINE:

The film, okay.

RAYMOND:

You know.

LEVINE:

Oh, okay. The sixteen — sixteen [unclear].

RAYMOND:

I don't know.

LEVINE:

Whatever it is.

RAYMOND:

Whether it's sixteen or eight.

LEVINE:

Eight, right.

RAYMOND:

I can't remember when eights came in, whether he had an eight millimeter film. I don't really know.

LEVINE:

Okay. Well, I also will note on the tape that a whole lot of uniform articles are being —

RAYMOND:

Yeah, another thing — now, I'm sure this is no different from — from any other officer's training, but it came as a shock in a way to us in that one day when we — when we came out. When we were called out, you know, for the morning role call and everything, there were holes all throughout the group and what had happened was that some of the people that they were not going to keep had been told not to go out and while we were out doing all, you know, what we were supposed to be doing, these other people were packing and we never saw them again. I mean they took them away somehow so we were not aware, but it really upset everybody for a number of reasons in that when you — have you been marching with a group, now it could be that some of the ones who were in the key positions were not there. That meant the next person had to take over. It threw the whole group.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

And we didn't — I guess I was a very naïve person because it never dawned on me that I might not be — that I might be washed out. It just never dawned on me. It never dawned me that anybody else would be, but I can't believe that everybody was as naïve as I was.

LEVINE:

Well, do you — do you know why those people were washed out?

RAYMOND:

We never could figure it out. There was one — there was one girl there from Texas who was the life of the party. She was — well, she happened to be one of the — well, some of the people there were enlisted who had applied for officer's training. Now, whether they knew more about them than they knew about us, or I don't know anything about their backgrounds, but I do know that this one particular one from Texas was the life of the party. Every time we were off in any way or had a chance, you know, she would lead the singing, and I can still remember singing. We always sang, you know, "Deep in the Heart of Texas," because of that.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

RAYMOND:

The only incident I can remember on the — on the — at the Academy that was when we had inspection, I can remember one time we could hear them coming down the hall and I looked over and I discovered that one of the people had made the bed wrong. Instead of being — something being four inches this way, it was the other, and I quickly jumped out of line. We were standing — supposed to be standing at attention, and I quickly jumped out of line and I made a false — what would you call it? A false — what do you — what am I trying to —

LEVINE:

I know what you mean. Whatever it — a corner.

RAYMOND:

Well, a turn. A turn. I made a false turn in the — in the sheets and the blanket in order to make it look right, and then I stepped back and I was so afraid because you never knew which one they were going to do. He'd take his stick and push it in there and I thought, "My goodness, if he does that and finds out, we'll all be in trouble." But we got by. [Laughs] We got by. We all breathed a sigh of relief.

LEVINE:

It must have been — I mean just that whole military barracks and —

RAYMOND:

It was and we — the blankets all said CCC on them from the Civilian Conservation Corps. No, it was really — it was the most structured military thing that I was in because when we — when I finally got out, I wasn't living in — you know, living in a barracks, you could call. It was more like a hotel. Everybody — all the rooms were pretty — you know, sparse. They were — it was a hotel and we had — [Coughs] Excuse me. We had a — the other officer I worked with had a parrot and she kept the parrot in the — we had a big lounge and the parrot became sort of the mascot and why we were allowed to get away with this, I don't know, but the interesting thing about the parrot, for some reason — I don't know if you know anything about parrots, but I grew up in a house where we always had a parrot, and maybe that's why this parrot knew that. I don't know, but the parrot took a big — a parrot is usually like a one-man bird. The parrot took a great liking to me, but the — one day the problem was that the sailors would come in, waiting for the dates and talk to the parrot and one day I was going, going through the captain's inspection and the captain looked over and he mentioned that we had this parrot, and I thought, he's going to tell us to get rid of it, you know. And he went over and he looked at it and he says, "Can this bird talk?" and the parrot looked up at him and said, "You go to hell." [Laughs] He thought that was the greatest joke. Of course, he was — you know, the sailors would say that to him.

LEVINE:

Oh, that's funny.

RAYMOND:

Anyway.

LEVINE:

Okay, we're at the end of the tape now.

RAYMOND:

Oh, well, good.

LEVINE:

And so signing off. [END OF INTERVIEW]