SIGRIST:

Good morning. This is Paul Sigrist for the National Park Service. Today is Wednesday, October 2nd, 1991. We're here at Ellis Island with Ann Craven, who came from Ireland in 1925 when she was eighteen years old. Good morning Mrs. Craven.

CRAVEN:

Good morning Paul.

SIGRIST:

I'd like to ask you to give us your full name, with your maiden name in there, please.

CRAVEN:

My name is Ann Kelly Craven. SIGRIST And what's your date of birth, please?

CRAVEN:

My date of birth is May 28th, 1906.

SIGRIST:

And where you born?

CRAVEN:

I was born in Ireland in, at the time it was called Kings County, right now it's called Offaly. And the time we got our free state in 1923, our county name was changed from the English version to the Irish version.

SIGRIST:

I see. Could you say Offaly?

CRAVEN:

Offaly, O-F-F-A-L-Y.

SIGRIST:

What part of Ireland is that?

CRAVEN:

That's right in the center of Ireland, in the midlands, in between Tipperary and Westmeath.

SIGRIST:

I see. Can you describe the town a little bit for me?

CRAVEN:

Very modern town. Lot of industry in it, there were three distilleries in our town and a beautiful hospital which my mother was a nurse in. A lot of, we had the grand canal go through our town from Dublin that delivered the Guiness' beer to the various places. Also it delivered the peat from part of Offaly to Dublin, the peat moss.

SIGRIST:

I see. So this was really a, it was like a small city more than a town?

CRAVEN:

Well, it was not a city, it was a very large town, very large modern town.

SIGRIST:

I see.

CRAVEN:

And we had locks, you know, they a, where the boats came through the locks.

SIGRIST:

And this is, this was one method of transportation.

CRAVEN:

Transportation at that time, with, some of the boats were steamboats some of them were drawn by horses.

SIGRIST:

You said that they delivered peat to Dublin, did they do this via these locks?

CRAVEN:

Yes. Yes, through the locks.

SIGRIST:

I see. Let's, let me start by asking questions about your parents. Let's start with your dad. What was his name?

CRAVEN:

John Kelly.

SIGRIST:

And was he from this town?

CRAVEN:

He was from this town, yes.

SIGRIST:

What did he do for a living?

CRAVEN:

Well, my father came to America first when he was sixteen years old. As a matter of fact, I think he was one of the men working on the Brooklyn Bridge when it was built. I don't know what age, what year that was. But he was a carpenter by trade but he didn't work at it all the time. He'd liked to travel. He spent most of his years in America. My mother's name was Margaret Owens, O-W-E-N-S. My mother was a nurse in Tellamoore Hospital.

SIGRIST:

What was her family like? What, what, what were, what was her father's profession for instance?

CRAVEN:

My father's, my grandfather owned, was a, oh, he was work for the Coltin's who owned the distillery and he was a buyer. Like he sold their cattle, there were people who owned a lot of cattle and a lot of land. And he was one of the men that traveled to various fairs. Fairs now was where people go to sell their wares like cattle and chickens and pigs and what have you. And he went to the various towns and cities, for to sell, buy and sell for his boss. He died at forty-one years old from pneumonia by getting cold in one of these places on a very, cold, wet day.

SIGRIST:

When you were girl growing up in this town, was your mother's family and your father's family an important part of your life?

CRAVEN:

Yes, very much. Very much so.

SIGRIST:

Talk about, talk about your, your, your mother's father and mother, what they were like as people.

CRAVEN:

My mother's mother, my mother's father I don't remember cause he had died young.

SIGRIST:

He was young, right.

CRAVEN:

But my mother's mother was a lovely, lovely lady who was very kind and very nice to all us grandchildren. And one of the things I remember most of her teaching us our prayers.

SIGRIST:

Religious family?

CRAVEN:

Religious family, yes.

SIGRIST:

What about your father's parents?

CRAVEN:

My father's parents were died, dead before I was born.

SIGRIST:

I see.

CRAVEN:

They died rather young, again I don't know how young but I don't remember them.

SIGRIST:

Do you know how your parents met?

CRAVEN:

Yes, I do. My mother had one brother, it was four girls and my grandmother thought he was God, you know, this one boy. And he used to play cards at my father's home. They were all neighbors and one night he didn't come home so early as she had expected him, so she elected my mother, who was the oldest, for to go get him. And my father was home from America at that time and that's how they met.

SIGRIST:

(they laugh) That's a great story.

CRAVEN:

Isn't that a great story?

SIGRIST:

Do you know what year they married in?

CRAVEN:

Uh, I don't know, the thing is that I have that, I do have that home. No, I'm not sure, really.

SIGRIST:

Okay.

CRAVEN:

To the best of my knowledge it would be 1872. Although that's, that's kind of early.

SIGRIST:

It seems early, sure.

CRAVEN:

That's seems early. Now I do have it home, I have their, as a matter of fact I have their marriage certificate.

SIGRIST:

Ah.

CRAVEN:

I wished I'd known I would have brought it with me.

SIGRIST:

Let's talk about the house you that lived in when you were growing up. Did you live in one house for a long period of time?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. It was our house for as long as I can remember.

SIGRIST:

Can you, can you sort of walk me through the house, through each room?

CRAVEN:

Well, we did, we only had two bedrooms. Two bedrooms and a kitchen and a little parlor. At that time people in Ireland didn't have big houses, you know, we were the average middle class family. We had two bedrooms, you could, we walked right in through the kitchen. To the left was the parlor and to the right was the bedrooms.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe the kitchen for me?

CRAVEN:

It was very square with a very large fireplace. That's all I can tell you, it had two windows in it, one each side of the door as you...

SIGRIST:

What furniture did you have in the kitchen?

CRAVEN:

My father made most of our furniture. And we had a dresser facing the, the door with all our dishes and wares which each Irish family, they called it a "dresser" at that time, that's all been done away with now. And then there was a settle bed in the right hand corner, in other words, that people came that you couldn't accommodate with a bedroom, it opened up with like a box,with a back to it, which like a cabinet, that went up in the front and you put two hooks on the side and that was how it looked like a cabinet but you could sit on it as a seat, just like, called it a "settleback".

SIGRIST:

Did you have a big table in the kitchen?

CRAVEN:

We had a big table in the kitchen, right in the center, which my father also made. And stools, no we didn't have, we had st..., we had chairs too, but we had stools that he had made that so many children could sit on each stool, they didn't take up the same space as a chair.

SIGRIST:

Now was the cooking done on the fireplace or...

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Did you have a stove, too?

CRAVEN:

No, no. It was done on a fireplace.

SIGRIST:

Do you, do you remember at all some of the things that are, are unusual about having to cook on a fireplace?

CRAVEN:

Yes. It was unusual because you had a, had a, something like this (she gestures), going across the fire, going across the fireplace. Coming up is an iron, that called "pot hooks". You could hang your pots on here, then there was a way of letting them down close to the fire when you want them to cook fast and you could raise them up when you want them to simmer. And that each side then was harps that you could put your teapot on or your kettle at the side. But that was our main heat as well as our cooking.

SIGRIST:

Was this common in houses at this time?

CRAVEN:

Yes, yes. Very, very.

SIGRIST:

Did you have electricity in the house?

CRAVEN:

No, not at that, not in the, my young day, we got electricity in, the electricity came in 19, between 1922 and 1923 to the average home but our, our companies, like the distilleries, all had electric and our church had electric and heat when I was very, a child. As long as I can remember. We had steam heat in our church and we also had electricity.

SIGRIST:

I see. Can you talk about the bedroom you slept in and maybe if you, I don't know, did you have brothers and sisters?

CRAVEN:

I had two, three sisters but my sisters was, difference in age, my two older sisters were here when I was still little, so I had one sister, we shared the same bedroom. I don't know what else to tell you, it's a...

SIGRIST:

Was there heat in the bedroom? Did you have a stove?

CRAVEN:

There was a fireplace. There was a fireplace, yes, we put a fire there in the early part of the evening, afternoons, so it would be warm by the time we would be going to bed. And that's was our main, then we used to put hot jars, you know they had hot jars if your bed was cold. Put boiling water in those jars and it was a top to them, you know, that screwed on. And they was the main way of heating your bed.

SIGRIST:

That's interesting.

CRAVEN:

Hm, hmm.

SIGRIST:

I want to get back to the kitchen a minute. Did you, as you were growing up, did you ever have to do any of the cooking in the house?

CRAVEN:

Not really. My mother did most of the cooking.

SIGRIST:

Was she a good cook?

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Was there something she made that, that you remember vividly?

CRAVEN:

Well, I do, I remember her bread and I also remember her stews, very, and soups, very, very and rice puddings and those are the things we were brought. Tapioca puddings, rice puddings, those were our desserts mainly. And Jello and that was it. 'Course we had all fresh vegetables from our garden.

SIGRIST:

Oh, talk about...

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

The garden, you grew your own vegetables.

CRAVEN:

Yes, yes.

SIGRIST:

What kinds of things did you grow?

CRAVEN:

Like celery, parsnips, carrots, turnip, cabbage, very much cabbage, very much, onions, of course potatoes was our main dish in our house.

SIGRIST:

So you had a good size plot of land.

CRAVEN:

Oh, very, very good. Very good. My mother was a great woman on health food.

SIGRIST:

Did, did you store any this stuff for the winter?

CRAVEN:

Yes, you always stored your potatoes.

SIGRIST:

How did you do that?

CRAVEN:

Well, you put them in the dark place and put mold, like peat, peat mold over them and cover them. Sometimes we leave them out outside in a pit, dig the pit, you know a hole, and put them in there, which we did most of the time. Put them in there and then you'd cover the end of it, so that when you want to open it up you could take out your potatoes, like when you'd need them. That's what, how most people saved their potatoes for the winter.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe the neighborhood that you lived in, a little bit?

CRAVEN:

Oh, I lived on a place called Clara Road.

SIGRIST:

Clara?

CRAVEN:

Clara Road, very nice road, main road. And it was right near the canal, right near the locks on the canal. Clara bridge was where the lock was. Very, very lovely area.

CRAVEN:

Yes, at that time. But when I was home this summer I went there, we rented our car in the place where my home, my home was. It's very much commercial now.

SIGRIST:

Sure.

CRAVEN:

Yeah. Like every place else, very much changed.

SIGRIST:

Dirt roads?

CRAVEN:

Oh no, no, beautiful roads. No dirt road. No dear, with the dirt was would be the side roads, off of the main road. But our's was a main road going on to various other towns, you know, you have to go through this, travel this road to get to the place called Clarrow. It was six miles away. And, well various, the vans in those days, you called them "vans", you would call them the "lorries". They used to deliver the liquor from the distilleries to these towns by van. Horses, you know, would draw the horses from one town to the other at that time, there was no, the automobile was not as plentiful as it is today, you know, it wasn't, as popular I should say.

SIGRIST:

But did...

CRAVEN:

We did have them.

SIGRIST:

Were there some...

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes, as long as I can remember we had automobiles and cars in our town.

SIGRIST:

Did your family have one?

CRAVEN:

No. We did, we had a, we had a donkey and cart and pony and trap for.

SIGRIST:

So, you kept animals.

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. We had dogs, two dogs. We had chickens, pigs.

SIGRIST:

Did, did the donkey have a name? Or the horse have a name?

CRAVEN:

Not really, not, no we didn't have a horse.

SIGRIST:

Pony.

CRAVEN:

A pony, yeah. A pony. A dog, we had lots of dogs from one time to another. Most of them we called them "Teddy" or "Spot", the ones I could remember.

SIGRIST:

Talk about being a girl and growing up in this town. What did you do for entertainment, say?

CRAVEN:

We played what you called "rounders". You call it baseball here but that was a form of "rounders". Much the same. And, of course, like all the children here, we played jump rope, we played marbles and we played jacks. That was our main thing. Played jack. We were not near a shore. We were, our town and our county is inland, we were not near this water. So we didn't have access to the beaches. The nearest beach would be near, around Dublin or Galway, which was quite a distance at that time because people did not have cars. And our main transportation was bicycling, except for the donkey and cart, we had a pony and trap, that was for local. Local traveling and all that, going about two or three miles away but for long distance you would have to hire a cab or whatever, which wasn't popular at the time.

SIGRIST:

Was there a train station in town?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. Yes, very much so. I hadn't been, we were not allowed those years to travel or go anyplace. I was never in Dublin until, well, on an excursion. And then, when I was coming to this country, to get my visa. That's the only time I was in Dublin. And you had to be home, if you weren't home at night like, and I was what fifteen or sixteen, if you weren't in by nine- thirty, ten o'clock, that was the rule. That was the rule of the house.

SIGRIST:

I see. Was your father in America when you were growing up or...

CRAVEN:

Most of it, part of the time he was in America, yes.

SIGRIST:

. When, when did he come back?

CRAVEN:

He came back after, like I told you, he came back in 1914.

SIGRIST:

So you were eight...

CRAVEN:

And he was, he didn't get back here then again until a, he came here, when I took them out here in 1926.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember when he came back?

CRAVEN:

Yes, I do.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe that for us?

CRAVEN:

Well, we were very excited, you know and he brought us back lot of toys and a lot of various things to my mother and my grandparents. And he found it difficult, you know, to settle after he came back. He, and then, of course, the war was on and he couldn't get back.

SIGRIST:

So, what did he do while he was...

CRAVEN:

Well, he worked in the distilleries then. He worked in the distilleries while he was home and as I said he did carpentry work on the side.

SIGRIST:

What was your father like? What was his temperament like?

CRAVEN:

Ah, he had a nice temperament, could swear a little bit. But he, he was always a nice man.

SIGRIST:

What did he look like?

CRAVEN:

He had fair complexion, very fair, with blueeyes and he had kind of a blondish, wavy hair.

SIGRIST:

What did your mother look like?

CRAVEN:

My mother was a very good looking woman. (she laughs) She was a little taller than my father. My father wasn't tall but all his brothers were over six foot. And my mother was kind of a brunette.

SIGRIST:

Talk about going to school in this town. Start by describing the school building for me.

CRAVEN:

Oh, our school buildings were very, well, of course, we did not have heat, we did not have steam heat in our school, so we had to bring a certain amount of money each month for fuel, you know, for coal or whatever the case may be. But the school was very, very well kept, very, very nicely.

SIGRIST:

Was it one big classroom or a big building...

CRAVEN:

No, no we had several, we had several classrooms. When you got up to the fifth, sixth grade - they had sixth, seventh and eighth - but there was a partition, you know, that divided when the classes would be going into certain rooms.

SIGRIST:

Now, how did you get to school?

CRAVEN:

I walked.

SIGRIST:

How far was it?

CRAVEN:

Oh, about less than half a mile. Not, not far.

SIGRIST:

Were there lot's of people your age in this neighborhood?

CRAVEN:

Yes, oh yes. Yes. Yes.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe your subjects, the sorts of things you were learning?

CRAVEN:

Well, like here reading, writing, arithmetic most of the time and geography. We had Gaelic books, which I didn't like very much because I found it very difficult to understand the Gaelic language. We only had that one day a week for one half hour, so most of the time I escaped. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Was Gaelic something your parents could speak?

CRAVEN:

No. Not where we were. It was very modern. We didn't have that, that was mostly in the west of Ireland and, you know, Galway...

SIGRIST:

So it was really like learning a foreign language.

CRAVEN:

Oh, it was and it was very difficult. It's a very hard language to learn. I still don't know it. It's very hard language to learn.

SIGRIST:

Did they ever teach you anything about America? What, as a kid growing up in Ireland, what did you know about America?

CRAVEN:

Oh, my father, my father loved America. That's why he wanted to come. My mother never wanted me to come here 'cause my mother didn't want to come. She was very happy, my other sisters were here, but when I left she was very much against me coming and that's why she came.

SIGRIST:

I see. You said that your grandmother taught you prayers, talk a little bit about your religious life when you were living in Ireland, church life.

CRAVEN:

Our church life was very strict in Ireland when I grew up. And I think it's pretty much stayed the same.

SIGRIST:

When you say strict what, what specifically do you mean?

CRAVEN:

We had to obey certain laws and we had to be religious instructions at a certain time. We had prayers three times a day in school. We had prayers when we first went in, we had prayers at noon and we had prayers at three o'clock before we left.

SIGRIST:

Was the church, was the school run by thechurch? Was it a Catholic school?

CRAVEN:

Yes, yes, Catholic school.

SIGRIST:

Were you taught nuns?

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any of them?.

CRAVEN:

Oh, I do. I remember a lot of them. I remember we had a very lovely music nun. Our sister, her name was Sister Mary Antonio and I think there was some Italian in her. I don't know were she came from but she was just one of the most beautiful people I've ever met. They were very strict. If you didn't know your lessons there, if you were late you were, you got, you got slapped, you know, you hold your hands out you got...

SIGRIST:

What did they slap with? A switch?

CRAVEN:

No, a big flat ruler, sometimes a pointer.

SIGRIST:

So they meant business.

CRAVEN:

But you always remembered if you made a mistake you paid for it and you try not to. (she laughs) Very, I think that's what's lacking here. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Probably.

CRAVEN:

Well, it's the truth. It doesn't hurt anybody. It doesn't hurt any, didn't hurt us either. And they were a little cruel but at the same time you learned and you knew. You paid for your mistakes and I think that's what wrong today. People don't believe in hitting, they don't believe in slapping. That's wrong. You don't hit people to hurt them, you hit people to remember. Like my father would say, "You'll remember the day." If we didn't do something right we would get slapped.

SIGRIST:

And that's...

CRAVEN:

And he'd say, "You'll remember the day" and which is true.

SIGRIST:

Was he the disciplinarian in the house?

CRAVEN:

Well, not, not, my mother was too, both of them were. Both of them were.

SIGRIST:

Did you have to wear an uniform to go to school?

CRAVEN:

No. We did not have to wear an uniform. That's only start up when I came here. If you went to private boarding school, yes, which there was a lot of them, yeah. But we didn't have to. Our's was a national school, even though it was Catholic. It was just supported by the government, you know, it was. We didn't have to pay. We got to buy our books but we and had to bring in money for fuel and school repair. Very little, you know, once a month you did that, whether they needed it or not you brought it in. But that kept up, kept the school up.

SIGRIST:

Would you say that most of the families whose children were going to the school were lower class, middle class?

CRAVEN:

Middle class, no, no, I wouldn't say lower class, middle class. You'd have to take in everybody but the majority of people were middle class people.

SIGRIST:

People who could have pay, who could afford to pay these small amounts without any hardships.

CRAVEN:

That's, oh yes, oh yes. Yes. Yes. Lot, lot of the people lived here, there were a lot of rich in Ireland, the people doesn't think that but there is a lot of rich people. And there was then, also.

SIGRIST:

Did you go to church every Sunday?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. Every morning.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe the church for me?

CRAVEN:

Well, right now it's burned done. It was burned down, right. I'm the same age as the church. The church was built the year, I was the first one in my family to be baptized in this church in 1906.

SIGRIST:

What was the name of the church?

CRAVEN:

The "Assumption", the Assumption Church, Tellamoore.

SIGRIST:

Was this a big church?

CRAVEN:

Big church, very large. And they've just rebuilt it. As a matter of fact, five years ago when I was over there, was the grand opening . And it's much, much larger now and modern. It's not nearly as nice. Our church was one of the most beautiful churches in the world. It was quoted to be one of the most beautiful churches in the world. But they couldn't build that like they had before because, first of all, they couldn't pay to have it done, the material was in it. It's very nice now but it's very modern.

SIGRIST:

Is there an experience as a child that sticks out in your mind connected with that church at all?

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Can, would you tell me please?

CRAVEN:

Well, when I was a little girl I loved babies and on one occasion I was taking the Child Jesus out of the church, to bring home. (she laughs) It was in the Christmas crib.

SIGRIST:

It didn't go over big with them.

CRAVEN:

And my, I was caught. And later, on when my mother was in the hospital nursing, there was a lovely sister there, Sister Gerald and she says to my mother, " Mrs. Kelly, do you remember", she says, " the time some youngster was taking the Child Jesus home from", not knowing that it was me, you know, and my mother said, " That child is this young lady, she's right here now." (she laughs) I'll never forget.

SIGRIST:

So they'll always remember you at that church.

CRAVEN:

They'll always remember me at that church, yes.

SIGRIST:

Umm, let's talk a little bit about the hospital cause you said your mother was a nurse there...

CRAVEN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And I'd like to, first talk a little bit about how your mother got to be a nurse and if you could describe the hospital a little bit for me, too.

CRAVEN:

It's hard for me to do that. It was a large hospital, it also had a children's school for orphans, you know, people whose parents had died. They had a boy's school and a girl's school. And they had a nursery, they had a place there for unwed mothers and they had a nursery that people who would have children, girls would have children, that they would be able to go in and have their babies and they'd be kept there for two years. And there was a nursery that someone was appointed to take care of those children while the mothers worked. They had to do a service in this home. They did work alone, they had their own laundry. They had everything and those girls worked in the laundry, in order for to repay for their care.

SIGRIST:

Is this...

CRAVEN:

And the..

SIGRIST:

The division that your mother worked in?

CRAVEN:

And my mother worked in both places. She worked in each division. She worked in the TB part, they had a fever hospital, TB hospital. And she worked in each department.

SIGRIST:

Had she always been a nurse?

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

So she really was away from the home then during the day.

CRAVEN:

Well she, yes, she was. She was, she was away from the home but not that, you know what I'm trying to, she did more or less part time. She was there enough that we'd be taken care of. And then it was near, you could always walk up there, it wasn't like here that you're, we could walk to anything, walk to the hospital, walk to school, walk to church.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember visiting your mother...

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes.

SIGRIST:

When she worked there?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes, yes. Yes, very much so.

SIGRIST:

What was it like for a, for a kid to, to, to go a hospital?

CRAVEN:

Well, it was very nice cause everybody was nice to you and they put on shows, plays there at Christmas time. They would put on, well the rich people of the town, would put on plays in that hospital and the cafeteria, well the restaurant part, where the, eating hall that you'd call here, they would put on plays at Christmastime and we would be invited being that my mother was there. But it was put on for the people in there. They had an old ladies' home. They had an old men's home. And I, from the hospital and they had two schools, a boy's school and a girl's school. That was a, it was a beautiful, beautiful place.

SIGRIST:

Very sophisticated.

CRAVEN:

It would cost a lot of money for people to have the same thing in this country, there, there it was for free.

SIGRIST:

Wow.

CRAVEN:

For anybody who, and the gardens around our hospital was absolutely beautiful. There was a man there by the name of Mr. Smith, who was the gardener. And you could, there was walks of all kinds. When you be, when a patient would be getting to feel well, they could walk around the gardens for a week or two before they'd go home. Very, very nice.

SIGRIST:

Tell me a little bit about World War I and if it affected you, your family or this town at all.

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. It affected us very much.

SIGRIST:

How so?

CRAVEN:

With, with such things as rationing, you know. And you had to specify a certain store that you deal with, in order for them, for to get your supplies. And, of course, my mother was out the day they came interview, to give you the rationing book and they wanted to know where we did "deal", meaning "deal", where. And I picks the most expensive store in the town. (she laughs) It was Egan's, they were the ones who made their, had the distillery. They had everything and, of course, my mother was furious 'cause it was very expensive but when we got there and after she got started she liked it very much. But it wasn't when you come down to think of it their food was excellent, their some of their stuff was good and they had very select people working for them that took very good care of you.

SIGRIST:

What was hard to get at that time?

CRAVEN:

Sugar, tea, the things that the Irish people like the most. And, and meat was hard to get. Of course, lot of people there had their own meat. You had your own chickens and a lot of people killed their own pigs, so they were not so badly off. We weren't as badly off as other people. Bread, we couldn't get white bread, we had to eat black, black flour, our flour was unbleached. It was very difficult, which, very unappetizing when we were young. And there was one girl that I knew her father had worked for a bakery and she'd have white bread for her lunch in school and we had black bread and I was very jealous of that.

CRAVEN:

Did you father have to, to, how was he affected by the war at all?

CRAVEN:

No, he wasn't affected by it, as far as going in the service you mean? No, he wasn't affected.

SIGRIST:

He was too old probably at that time.

CRAVEN:

Well not only that but it was conscript, of course, they did conscript, the English were in power at that time, all of our young fellows were conscripted. But my father I guess, was too old, you know I don't know, I don't remember that part of it. But he'd been in this country, as I told you, he was, so he wasn't affected that way. The only way he was affected, he could not get back to America. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Had he become a citizen or anything like that?

CRAVEN:

He had become a citizen but there were no boats going back and forth.

SIGRIST:

Right, right, I realize that but I was wondering if he had been in America for so long...

CRAVEN:

Yeah. Yeah. There was no boats.

SIGRIST:

What did he used to tell you about America?

CRAVEN:

Oh, well he had brothers here. My father had one brother who had children and we was correspond with them all the time. And he had another brother who never had any children. And he would talk about them. And he had two sisters here. So that, family, most of them came to this country when they were young. He had...

SIGRIST:

Did he paint a, an exciting picture of America?

CRAVEN:

Yes. He always loved America. He did, he loved it. And, of course, in those days America wasn't like what it is today but he still loved it. He, he painted a very, but my mother never wanted to come here, you see, that was his reason for coming back and she just didn't want to come to America.

SIGRIST:

Did, when did your father go back to America? Or he stayed?

CRAVEN:

Oh, he didn't go back.

SIGRIST:

He didn't go back...

CRAVEN:

He died. Oh, he died, he came here in 1926, he died in 1929.

SIGRIST:

I see.

CRAVEN:

As matter of fact...

SIGRIST:

So he stayed in...

CRAVEN:

It was the end of 1926, it was, they were here for three days and they just got off the boat on Christmas eve, there, my brother and my father and my mother. My brother was nine.

SIGRIST:

So he, so, so you actually came to America before, you brought him over later.

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. Later.

SIGRIST:

Well, let's talk a little bit then about you and why you wanted to come here. Tell, talk a little bit about the process of how you went about getting here.

CRAVEN:

Well, at that time everybody had the idea of coming to America, the people were coming, boatloads and boatloads, you know, and I just got the same urge. And my, I wrote my sister, my two sisters are here.

SIGRIST:

Where were they living?

CRAVEN:

One lived in the LaSalle Street and one livedon Ninty-eight Street.

SIGRIST:

Did they get jobs when they came here?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yeah.

SIGRIST:

What, what sorts of things of things were they doing?

CRAVEN:

Well, they were mostly living out girls because that was their main reason at that time for you to get ahead, you know. We got jobs in stores but by the time your carfare and pay your expenses you didn't have anything left. So you see the other kind of a job you had your room and board and you had your monthly pay which you could make use of.

SIGRIST:

Um, hmm. When you say living out girls, do, are you talking about domestics?

CRAVEN:

Domestics. They did domestic work my sisters. I, when I came here I took kind of a governess job because the girl who I , I got a job through my sister's neighbor. And the girl who I replaced had been a governess for this little boy. His name was George Compton. His father was professor of English in City College and I worked for them for a year.

SIGRIST:

I'm going to pause right now.

CRAVEN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Thank you. END OF SIDE A START OF SIDE B

SIGRIST:

So your sisters were working as domestics here in...

CRAVEN:

My one sister. My other sister was married.

SIGRIST:

She was married. And they're corresponding with you back and forth?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. It was her who paid my expenses to come here. And I did that unbeknown to my mother because my mother didn't want me to come.

SIGRIST:

Wait, did your father know?

CRAVEN:

My father knew and he was anxious for me tocome.

SIGRIST:

How did your mother feel, do you think, when she...

CRAVEN:

Well, I told her then and a little while later and she kind of got consoled, you know, reconciled to it. But she was unhappy when I left and I promised her I'd either come home or take her over there, which I did.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember packing?

CRAVEN:

There was very much little to pack in thosedays, you don't. I do remember, I brought a lot of gifts to my sisters and to relatives here.

SIGRIST:

What kind gifts did you take?

CRAVEN:

I took Belleek, and that's Belleek china, mostly Belleek china. And various things, I just can't remember now but I do remember that very, very well.

SIGRIST:

Where did you buy the Belleek?

CRAVEN:

I bought it in Dublin.

SIGRIST:

This was the excursion you were talking about.

CRAVEN:

Yes, yes. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How did you, weren't you concerned that it would...

CRAVEN:

They had some in our own town, too, they hadsome in our own town. We had a very nice china shop there, that I did buy some things there also.

SIGRIST:

How did you wrap it? Weren't you concern that it would break?

CRAVEN:

No, I wrapped it very well. Lot of paper and, no, I didn't, didn't break anything.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how many suitcases you brought?

CRAVEN:

I even brought a, I just brought one suitcase, large, large suitcase.

SIGRIST:

You even took a, you were saying...

CRAVEN:

I brought a statue with me and it didn't break. I still have it, it didn't break

SIGRIST:

What is it a statue of?

CRAVEN:

Statue of our Blessed Mother, statue.

SIGRIST:

I see. And that's Belleek, also.

CRAVEN:

No, it's not Belleek, it's just chalk.

SIGRIST:

I see.

CRAVEN:

But it's something that breaks very easily but it didn't break.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember saying good-bye to your family?

CRAVEN:

Yes, I do. It was very hard.

SIGRIST:

Describe that for us, please.

CRAVEN:

Well, that part was very sad 'cause a lot of my cousins came up to the station to see me off. And I was young and, as I said, young in age but I was young also in ways because I was not mature like the children are today. And that's what worried my mother, you know, that coming over. And we had to make our station stop, like a junction, the train that I took from my town only went about like ten miles. Then we had get a train at another junction to take me to Cork. And after I got there, I had a letter from a hotel man in our town who is a big friend of my mother's, recommending me to go to this particular hotel, which I didn't go to 'cause the groups I met on the train were all going to Hennessy's Hotel. And the one I was supposed to go to was Brady's Hotel but I went to Hennessy's. And I enjoyed it very much and there I, Mr. Hennessy the man who owned the hotel, talked about the Titanic. And he said that people who went on the Titanic had stayed in that hotel and one man had a dream that something would happen and they had said to him, "Oh, don't be foolish, a ship like this, is anything to happen to it." He didn't go on that ship. So he was, I, that sunk into my mind so much, you know, that I never forgot it and listening to him tell that story.

SIGRIST:

So aren't you glad you went to Hennessy's?

CRAVEN:

Yes, yes. And in the meantime we had to spend three days there.

SIGRIST:

When you say we, who else was...

CRAVEN:

That would mean everybody that was going on that ship, that was coming on the ship, had to spend three days in Queenstown to be examined. We had to go through terrible, when I think of these people coming in illegally today, it kind of annoys me. We had to spend three days in Queenstown to be examined by doctors, our clothes were fumigated and all that. There was many sent back.

SIGRIST:

Was there a large facility in Queenstown to do this?

CRAVEN:

Yes. Oh, yes, yes.

SIGRIST:

What kinds of examinations?

CRAVEN:

Well, and I had had some marks on my side here from a sickness called, they had called it shingles here but there they called it "wildfire", and I was marked from it and they, it looked like a burn, you know. So he asked me if it was a burn. I said, "Yes", sooner than go through all the explanation of what it was. I just said it was a burn. It had been a burn. But several people had been turned for heart murmur. Another fellow had something wrong with one finger, he was turned down. It wasn't easy at that time. It was very difficult, you had to be well.

SIGRIST:

How did you feel? What was going through your mind during all this?

CRAVEN:

I was worried in case I would be turned back and because I was very, I'm very asthmatic, you know, of course I do have spasms. Like when I get a cold it stays longer than the average person and I wheeze a lot. The doctor had said to me, " It may be possible that you won't wheeze when you're there and it could be that you wouldn't, you wouldn't". So it happen that I passed anyway.

SIGRIST:

Did your family, say your mother or father go with you to Queenstown or you said good-bye them...

CRAVEN:

No, no, no, no. No, I said good-bye to them in my own town.

SIGRIST:

Now this, this group of people that you're traveling with, who are all going to go on the boat...

CRAVEN:

They're all going to America.

SIGRIST:

Did you know anybody else?

CRAVEN:

No, no. I didn't know anybody else, only who I met. They were all from different parts of Ireland. Mostly from the west of Ireland 'cause it's a poorer, poorer land down there. There was, they were all people from the west of Ireland heading from any place, Mayo and Galway and all these places was, land was not productive, it's like very rocky, very rocky.

SIGRIST:

How did you feel about meeting people who may have been of lesser economic...?

CRAVEN:

I didn't think that way. I didn't know enough to think that way. And they were all very nice. Most of the people I met were very nice. Lot of young girls had been born in this country and had been brought home by their parents when they were young and then they were coming back here.

SIGRIST:

How did you feel about your clothes being fumigated?

CRAVEN:

Oh, I felt terrible. Felt terrible, they were awful. Everybody, just as me, everybody, this was like a routine. Your hair, that they, put all this stuff in your hair. It was a routine that did for everyone. That was not like in steerage 'course I think first class passengers didn't have to, there was only two, two things on this boat, either steerage or first class. It was no second class, which most of the English ships have, first, second and third.

SIGRIST:

And you, what was the name of the boat?

CRAVEN:

The "President Roosevelt", the "S.S. President Roosevelt", how could you miss. I wrote it all down. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

But we need it on tape. Can you talk to me a little bit about the boat and what your accommodations were like? CRAVE Oh, the boat was very nice and everybody on it was very nice. I, there was a purser there by the name of Mr. King and of course I was very sick on the boat. My father had advised me of going on not to eat much because he said "Leave it go for a day or so", but of course we were so hungry by the time we got onthe boat that I ate everything that I could get. And I was, I didn't eat anything for the rest of the week. And I remember this Mr. King, he was the purser, coming up one time and putting a mouse, a rubber mouse, on my knee to make me , oh, I thought I would die. I thought it was a real mouse. That was quite an experience.

SIGRIST:

I bet. CRAVEN Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe you accommodations for me on the boat? CRAVEN Well, there was two, um, two bunks, like. One up and one down. That was it. Like, like double deckers.

SIGRIST:

Did you have a roommate?

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Who was this person?

CRAVEN:

Gee, I can't remember who that girl. Oh, she had been in America. This girl had been in America for years and was home on the trip and she said she wouldn't come back if she could accept the climate in Ireland. Said she was so happy over there that she would stay, she couldn't stand the cold. It is a damp climate, you know, Ireland. And after you live in this country awhile it's very difficult to adjust to it again. But that's what she told me.

SIGRIST:

So how soon did you get sick?

CRAVEN:

I got sick the second day. Around, right after I had this food.

SIGRIST:

Was there a dining room for you on board?

CRAVEN:

Oh, the dining room was gorgeous.

SIGRIST:

Really, what was...?.

CRAVEN:

Oh, it was beautiful. There was a bar. There was a recreation room, it was a beautiful boat, not a large boat but a beautiful boat. It had everything. 'Course I was well enough for the dinner, you know, like the night before we left we had this dinner party where I told you I got this band, the "S.S. President Roosevelt" and I've saved that so many years and I know that I have it put away so careful that I just couldn't put my hand on it.

SIGRIST:

Was this something, this band which is embroidered with the "S.S. Roosevelt"...

CRAVEN:

Something you would wear around hat or your hair.

SIGRIST:

Was this given to everybody?

CRAVEN:

Everybody. Everybody.

SIGRIST:

Kind of like a...

CRAVEN:

Souvenir, like a souvenir....

SIGRIST:

Souvenir.

CRAVEN:

Souvenir, like a souvenir of the boat.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember being up on deck at all of the boat?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. Yeah, we danced on deck and we had fun, you know. I met this, several of these Irish fellows, you know, they all loved to play music. They never take lessons but they all can play violin or accordion or whatever. And there was a lot of fun, lot of fun on deck. And then, of course, there was a lot of people there playing shuffle board which I had never seen. But it was a, something that other people knew about.

SIGRIST:

When did you get well?

CRAVEN:

Oh, about two days before we, we landed.

SIGRIST:

Did you pretty much stay in your bunk the whole time while you were sick?

CRAVEN:

Oh, no I didn't because they wouldn't let you. That would be the worst thing to do. I come up for the air, you know, for our bunk was downstairs, you know. I came up. But I didn't eat anything. I had some juice and things like that.

SIGRIST:

What, what, what month was it when you left?

CRAVEN:

April. April 7th. We, umm, April 7th I left my home and April 10th we started on the boat. I landed here on April 17th.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember seeing the Statue of Liberty?

CRAVEN:

Yes I do. We came in dark, docked in the harbor overnight. And of course the lights were so exciting on the boat to look at New York and look at that Statue of Liberty. Very exciting.

SIGRIST:

What was it like to be a girl, uh, 'course you've been in Dublin so you've seen a big city, but what was it like to see New York City from the boat for the first time?

CRAVEN:

Oh, New York, New York was beaut, I thought it was beautiful. I thought the lights and after I, after I come here my sister took me, my brother-in-law took me down Broad, see the lights of Broadway. I, I just thought it was beautiful. I love America, I love New York and I don't live in New York. I never did 'cause I went to work up in Westchester but I do love New York.

SIGRIST:

It's a nice place to visit.

CRAVEN:

It is. It's a lovely city. It's a shame that it is so abused, it gets me so annoyed but...

SIGRIST:

Talk to me about what you remember about Ellis Island and that whole procedure.

CRAVEN:

About what, Ellis Island?

SIGRIST:

About Ellis.

CRAVEN:

Oh.

SIGRIST:

You said the boat was docked in the harbor...

CRAVEN:

We landed.

SIGRIST:

And then what happened.

CRAVEN:

We landed in, uh, the next morning then, of course, daylight came. The seagulls had attracted my attention, so much seagulls around that harbor. We went on, got on a tender to go to Hoboken. (she pauses) No, we got on the tender to go to Ellis Island, we were docked in Hoboken. So we got on the tender and went to Ellis Island from Hoboken. And coming here I, I was like everybody else. I was excited about it. Didn't know what to expect.

SIGRIST:

What did it look like to you?

CRAVEN:

Uh, very, very large and an awful lot of people. It didn't look bad, it looked nice. I can still remember that hall down there, that very large receiving hall. And I was not much more than, about three hours at the most or four hours.

SIGRIST:

What did they do to your...

CRAVEN:

They examined you again, all over again. The doctors examined you, they all thought I looked German. They thought, 'cause there was a lot of foreign people on that boat. You know there wasn't many, not that many Irish. It was mostly Greeks, Russians and Polish people and I guess I looked a little German. I had very red cheeks at the time.

SIGRIST:

Was that an interesting experience for you, being around non-English speaking people?

CRAVEN:

Yes, it was a great experience. It was, I didn't know anything but what they were saying but it was really a great experience to see all this different people communicating with each other. And they knew what it was all about, you know.

SIGRIST:

Did someone come and meet you at Ellis Island?

CRAVEN:

My sister, yes, my sister.

SIGRIST:

What was it like to see your sister?

CRAVEN:

Well, she had been in this country from young. I was young when she left. I really didn't really, she had called out my name. Otherwise I wouldn't have known her. She had a friend with her, a girlfriend with her. And my, my other sister's little boy who was about six or seven years old at that time. And I was very excited when I saw her and she was when she saw me, too. So she left Hoboken, she went down to get the ferry, Staten Island ferry, you know, to Ellis Island, the Ellis Island ferry, whichever. She didn't come, she couldn't come on that tender that we went on, so she met me in Ellis Island. She was there. So I was very well taken care of and after I been in my sister's for a while the Traveler's Aid Society followed me up to see that I was in the right place, which I thought was wonderful. And to see that I should go to school being that I was young, you know.

SIGRIST:

Now did she, where did your sister take you when you left Ellis?

CRAVEN:

Took me to my other sister's that, that was married, that had a family. I stayed with her.

SIGRIST:

Was this on LaSalle Street?

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Was this the sister...

CRAVEN:

LaSalle Street.

SIGRIST:

Can you, can you describe where your sister lived? What was the apartment or the house like?

CRAVEN:

It was an apartment building, 84 LaSalle Street. It was very nice and strange thing about it one of the men, the purser or waiters whatever you want to call them on the boat, I met him the next day, he lived up the street. Wasn't that something.

SIGRIST:

What was that neighborhood like in New York?

CRAVEN:

At that time it was nice. It was very nice. It was near, I don't know whether you're familiar it or not....

SIGRIST:

I know the area. Was it an immigrant neighborhood or...?

CRAVEN:

Kind of, lot of German people and Irish and Italian. Mostly German and Irish in that area at that time.

SIGRIST:

Now, uh, describe your sister's apartment for me.

CRAVEN:

She had five rooms there. She had two bedrooms, kitchen, dining room and living room.

SIGRIST:

She have electricity?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. She had everything.

SIGRIST:

Running water?

CRAVEN:

Yes. Everything. She had, she had everything, yes, she had everything.

SIGRIST:

This is the married sister's apartment, right?

CRAVEN:

Yes. Yes. Yes.

SIGRIST:

So how long did you stay with her?

CRAVEN:

I stayed with her for about a month, when I, when I got this job. I got a job at Macy's, I didn't take it 'cause I realized that and they thought I would get more rest, you know, be able to go away with this fam, which I did. I went to the Cape. I went to Cape Cod with this family to take care of this little boy. After I've been three weeks with them.

SIGRIST:

What little boy is this? CRAVEN This little boy that I took care of.

SIGRIST:

I see. This was the job that you got.

CRAVEN:

Yeah. The job that I got and like I told you the governess had serious surgery and my sister's neighbor knew this party and she asked her if I had gotten a job yet. And my sister said, "Yes, a couple of jobs but she hasn't taken any." So then she told me about this and it was going away and I thought, she thought it was good opportunity for me and that summer happened to be a very hot summer. You might read it sometimes in the paper. Lot of people died in New York from the heat in 1925.

SIGRIST:

So it was nice that she...

CRAVEN:

It was nice that I was away, you know.

SIGRIST:

Tell me a little bit about, some, some your discoveries in New York in, in that particular spot, the first month or so. What, what were some of the things you really liked about it? What struck you about this city?

CRAVEN:

Well, I, as I said, I like to travel, loved Broadway. I like the traveling and I liked, I think I went to the circus the second night I was here. The circus was in Madison Square Garden at the time. I thought that was fantastic compared to having a tent. You know, in Ireland, we had circus every year but it came over night in a tent and it would be gone and I thought it was very, very nice. And parks, Central Park, they took me to Central Park, took me various places, Rockaway Beach, that's about as much as I can tell you...

SIGRIST:

Yeah.

CRAVEN:

There was very little I missed, believe me. And we had a lot of, lot of people that we knew, that I visited with. And then we had our county dance, you know, you go and you meet all the people from home with you and have like a reunion.

SIGRIST:

So it was like an Irish organization.

CRAVEN:

Yes. Yes. Yes. It were a lot of them, yeah. So I wasn't lonesome, you know, I wasn't homesick.

SIGRIST:

Talk about your communications with your parents once you came here. Were you...?

CRAVEN:

Oh, my parents, I wrote them steadily, very much so, yes.

SIGRIST:

Let's talk a little bit about how you brought them over here.

CRAVEN:

The following year my, I paid all their expenses myself for traveling.

SIGRIST:

How did you convince your mother to come?

CRAVEN:

Well, I guess she got to the point, was very hard because she would've had been on pension had she waited a little longer with her job and she didn't like giving that up but she wanted to be with her children. And finally she came anyway. And then when my father came, so they came.

SIGRIST:

They came together?

CRAVEN:

They came, yes, with my brother, my brother was nine. And they came on the same line as I did. They came on the "President Roosevelt" also. They landed here about three or four days before Christmas. And I was the one that was responsible. Even though I was only nineteen then, not even quite nineteen. However, I was taken in on the boat by the doctors and brought in and they me my father was a sick man and that he could not work. And that we would have to provide for them and also see that my brother went to school until he was fourteen years old. So, I spoke to my travel agent then, Mr. Grimes, and I called him and told him all about it and he said, "I'll come down with you." He came down with me and he thought I might need a bond, you know. My sisters came and we, whatever little money we had we, we showed them what we had. We had to do that in order for them to let them off. They would be provided for. And Mr. Grimes, the next day, he came down two days in a row, so the next day was Christmas Eve and that was the day they got off and Mr. Grimes couldn't come with me. He gave me five hundred dollars. Can you imagine a man trusting me with five hundred dollars, at my age?

SIGRIST:

Well, this was an enormous responsibility to be saddled with.

CRAVEN:

He was a wonderful guy to do that. (clears throat) Anyway, I didn't need it. In the event I would, he was there. So they got off on Christmas Eve and we had to sign a paper that they would be not a burden to the country. And my brother would be sent to school and we, we provided all that. My father died two years, he died on 22nd of May, 1929.

SIGRIST:

Now did you say to me earlier that your parents were at Ellis Island for three days?

CRAVEN:

That's right.

SIGRIST:

So this is where you came down to meet them.

CRAVEN:

Right. Right.

SIGRIST:

Did your mother or father ever tell you anything about that experience of what it was like?

CRAVEN:

Well, they thought they were very well treated. They said they were very nice here on Ellis Island, at that time they were here, but they had to go here, go through all the doctors evidently then.

SIGRIST:

What was your father sick with?

CRAVEN:

It must have been, they never told us, it must have been, of course, we weren't, I wasn't old enough to realize or to ask questions, you know. But today I would know better. But it must have been his heart because he died suddenly.

SIGRIST:

Is that what he died of?

CRAVEN:

Yes. He died suddenly of heart. He died on, as matter of fact, my mother went out to get him a cup of tea and by the time she, she had given him a match to light his pipe, he smoked, she gave him a match in his hand and he was dead, yeah.

SIGRIST:

I see.

CRAVEN:

He was only fifty-seven.

SIGRIST:

Talk to me, in our few remaining minutes here, about how your mother got on in America?

CRAVEN:

Well, we all helped. My sisters were very good, my mother broke up her apartment and she made her home with each one of us. You know, she's stay with me, and I took my brother, and I put that all in the paper. I took my brother and I send him to school and...

SIGRIST:

Was your father buried in this country?

CRAVEN:

Yes, he's buried in Calvary. My father and mother buried in Calvary.

SIGRIST:

Did she, was she bitter about having, being in America and having this happen to her?

CRAVEN:

She was, a little bit, yeah. 'Cause she would have been better off home, no question about it. She had her own home but then she wouldn't go back she didn't want to leave us, you know. A mother's love is very strong.

SIGRIST:

Did she, did she ever soften about America?

CRAVEN:

Oh, she loved America. She loved the people, which she felt she was better off to stay in her own country, which she would have been, you know, at the time. But we didn't think that way.

SIGRIST:

Do you think that she felt like an outsider here in America, because she's so much older, of course.

CRAVEN:

No she wasn't old when she came. She was only in her fifties.

SIGRIST:

But, but I'm saying she didn't come over as a child, I mean...

CRAVEN:

That's right, that's right.

SIGRIST:

She's, she's an adult now and...

CRAVEN:

Yes, yes, but she, no she didn't, no she didn't feel that way about it. She just felt that, financially she would've been better off to stay at home in her own country, you know. And being able to go visit her own, other, she did like New York. She loved, she loved to be in New York with my sisters because she'd go to the movies in the afternoon and different things, you know. But up with me it was a little bit more out of the way. I lived almost up in Westchester.

SIGRIST:

Did she, um, did she hook up with the Irish organizations at all?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. Yes. They all loved her. She had a pleasant life here.

SIGRIST:

Well. I guess my final question for you is are you happy that you made that decision to come here?

CRAVEN:

Oh, yes. Yes.

SIGRIST:

How do you think your life would have been different if you stayed in Ireland?

CRAVEN:

Well, I really don't know. Anybody I go see there now that's in my age bracket, not too many left, but they're do all very well off and very comfortable, so I don't think we did any better than we've would have done if we stayed in our own country. I think anybody who makes it in their own country should stay there. That's my, I may be wrong but that's how I feel.

SIGRIST:

I see. CRAVE That's why, if they worked this hard in their own country as they do when they come here they wouldn't have to leave. 'Course there again there's not always that opportunity, you know, for employment which does make a difference.

SIGRIST:

But certainly in your life...

CRAVEN:

Yeah, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Coming here at that time...

CRAVEN:

And at that time, Ireland was after, after the war and then we had the civil war and it wasn't good, you know. But today they're living way better. Their people, older people in Ireland than they are in this country. Very comfortable and very nice.

SIGRIST:

So in the context of the time that you came...

CRAVEN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

And your situation at that time, then it was a good thing for you to come.

CRAVEN:

Oh, it was. It was better here, yes, no question about that. It was better, better chance, better opportunities. And I do love America. I love American people.

SIGRIST:

Good.

CRAVEN:

Very, very much.

SIGRIST:

Well, Mrs. Craven I want to thank you for coming down here...

CRAVEN:

I just hope I sound alright or that I said the right things...

SIGRIST:

Oh,...

CRAVEN:

It's on a tape. I feel embarrassed if it isn't. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Never worry about saying the right thing or the wrong thing. But anyway...

CRAVEN:

(they laugh) I said it as it was, I...

SIGRIST:

Exactly,

CRAVEN:

I can't

SIGRIST:

This is Paul Sigrist...

CRAVEN:

And, of course, I have a big family, as you know.

SIGRIST:

Who are, who are all here. (he laughs)

CRAVEN:

No, Not all of them, one missing, (she laughs), one missing. A lot of, my other son who I thought would be here but...

SIGRIST:

He'll be able to listen to the tape.

CRAVEN:

But he, he was here already, so what can I tell you.

SIGRIST:

Well, I want to thank you again for coming out here and this is Paul Sigrist signing off for the National Park Service with Ann Craven. END OF INTERVIEW