LEVINE:

March 14 th , 1999 and I'm here in Fort Myers, Florida with Sheila Koch, who came from England in — in June of 1940 aboard the first children's ship to leave England during the bombing of London.

KOCH:

Right.

LEVINE:

And Sheila is 67 at the time of this interview and this is Janet Levine for the National Park Service. Okay, if we could start at the beginning, Sheila, could you just say where you were born and when you were born?

KOCH:

All right. I was born October 17 th , 1931 in London, England.

LEVINE:

And were you living in London up until the time that you left?

KOCH:

Right, uh-hmm. I was.

LEVINE:

Okay, so you were eight — eight and a half —

KOCH:

A half at the time, right.

LEVINE:

At the time. Okay. Your early life before World War II, where in London were you living?

KOCH:

Well, at the time we were living — let me think — 28 Lingwood Road, Clapton Common. I remember the address very vividly. And it was sort of a suburb of the city of London.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

And I lived there with my mother and father and my older sister. She's three and a half years older than I. And of course, we had, you know, our aunts, uncles and cousins lived in the same area.

LEVINE:

I see. And how about grandparents? Did you have them?

KOCH:

My m — my grandmother died be — I think before I was born. My grandfather remarried a lady. She didn't speak English and I don't remember too much about her. But I remember my grandfather and he lived to about the age of ninety-one, and he was a tailor.

LEVINE:

Really? Now, was this your mother's father or your fa —

KOCH:

This was my father's father.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

My mother's parents — they came from Russia. I don't know what happened to my grandfather. I think he left and went to Canada and they never heard from him again. And my grandmother died, I believe, when I was about a year old.

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-huh. I see. So was your father's family from that area? From England?

KOCH:

No, my grandfather was born in Poland and his first wife, I believe my father told me, was French. I don't know about his stepmother, where she was from.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

I believe she must have been Polish too because she didn't speak English, so I assume she was Polish also.

LEVINE:

I see. So w — it was the grandparents who came to England.

KOCH:

Came to — right.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

They immigrated to England.

LEVINE:

England, uh-huh. Okay, well —

KOCH:

Something interesting too, and I — (clears throat) I don't think I've ever talked about it. My grandfather's name was Greenwood and when he came to England and he had a very thick accent, from what I understand, the — whoever it was that handled the people coming — immigrants — said, "Well, we're going to name you Green." You know. And so that's how the family name got to be Green. But from what my father told me, the family name was Greenwood.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

So (chuckles) I thought that was sort of interesting.

LEVINE:

Yes, it is. Well, okay. So living in — living in England for those years, what do you remember — when you think of those years, what are the things that come to your mind?

KOCH:

Well, I remember when my father and mother used to take us to the movies and I used to sit on my father's shoulder. Can remember that. And I know I was only a few years old. And I can remember the commons, which is like a park area and they have a big lake in the middle. And we used to go down and watch the boys float boats, you know, little homemade boats in that. I remember the library, because my mother used to go to the library all the time, and I used to get out library books when I was very young, you know, with pictures in it. So I remember that.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And when I was a little bit older, we lived in this house that was — I guess you call it a row house.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

You know, they're joined together.

LEVINE:

Attached, uh-huh.

KOCH:

Attached. And we lived — when we looked out of our balcony window we saw the River Lea. And we had a balcony. Our kitchen opened with Dutch doors. And we had a veranda. We'd sit and eat breakfast there and we could watch them — they used to have the boat races, you know, with the canoes, I guess they are. Whatever. You know, there's like ten men in it and they row down the river?

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And it was very, very pretty. I remember that. And I remember in our basement — see, my dad was a woolen merchant. In those days, men didn't buy suits readymade. You know, they had — everything was tailored in those days. And he used to — he used to travel to Ireland or Scotland or Amsterdam and buy what he called worsteds. That's the name I know.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

I guess it's fabrics — to have men's suits made. And he used to have a trunk full of silks and materials in our basement. And my sister and I used to dress up like princesses (chuckles) and parade around the basement all dressed up with all this finery on.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And the way our house was, I can remember it — I've been back a couple of times. I went to see the house once. And it had stained glass windows in the front door. And as you opened up into a foyer you had black and white tile. And then we had a stairway that went up to the bedrooms. And on one side was the formal living room and then we had our — what you would call a family room today, big room that we ate in and we had a couch and a radio, and then the kitchen and that opened, as I said, onto a veranda. That's — that's how I remember it. And we had a very nice little garden with the white trellis arbors with climbing roses, because my mother was into, you know, doing flowers and so forth. And we had at one time — my uncle lived with us. He was unmarried at the time and he lived several years with us, but I can't remember how long he was with us. And then we had a boarder also, Mr. Snow. And I remember him because he used to sit with my sister and I and show us pictures of World War I when he was in World War I, and I can remember that.

LEVINE:

Wow.

KOCH:

And let's see. What else do I remember? Oh, that's about what I can remember of the house. We were on a hill, Spring Hill, and at the bottom of the hill was the park. Spring Hill Park was at the bottom. And when I went to school, that was at the top of the hill. You walked up the hill and turned the corner, and across the street was the school that I went to. And I have a picture of myself when I was four, I believe — four or five, because they start school earlier there. And I have a picture of me in the playground with my class.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

And I still have that.

LEVINE:

Wow.

KOCH:

And let's see. What else can I remember? Whereas I said, my father was in business — or at that time he worked for somebody else at the time. That's when the war started. And when the war started, I remember we had an air raid shelter. We had to have it. Everybody had an — an air raid shelter.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And we had to get the black curtains that — to cover up the windows from the — you know, for the light. Also, when we were children we used to go over on our holidays to Brussels.

LEVINE:

Oh.

KOCH:

See, it sounds, "Oh, wow!" But that's like going into another state. Right?

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And we used to go over to Brussels and Bel — which is Belgium and spend vacations there. And I remember my father had a car that you had to get out and crank. And we used to go to Bournemouth, which is a seaside resort there. I can remember that. And I have pictures of my sister and I at Bournemouth. So I think I was about three or four years old. I don't — I can't remember the — the time very well.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

So those are some of the things that I do remember.

LEVINE:

Wow. Do you remember — well, first, let's — what was your father's name?

KOCH:

Sidney.

LEVINE:

And your mother?

KOCH:

Rita.

LEVINE:

And your mother's maiden name?

KOCH:

Cohen — C-O-H-E-N.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And do you remember the buildup toward World War II? Do you re — what, as a child —

KOCH:

You know —

LEVINE:

Do you recall any —

KOCH:

I d — I really don't remember. I do remember that — and I — I don't know what led up to it but we had to have gas masks when we went to school. And I can still remember that — that in the class we had to learn how to put the gas mask on. And I can still remember to this day how you put it over the head and stick your thumbs under. And you had to pull it down under your chin. Then we had to get under our desks, put our hands over our heads and we had to stay quiet like that. But I don't remember why or whatever. I just know that's what we had to do. And then when we started — one day, we went down to the park and there were soldiers down there. And they had these b — we called them bar — barrage balloons. They looked like, oh — like the Goodyear Blimp.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

But we called them barrage balloons. I don't know what — another term for — that's all I remember. And they were up there and they had the long chains coming down. And then I remember — I think my mother said the reason they had the chains, in case enemy aircraft came along, they might — in the dark, they might get caught in — in these chains because the balloons were way, way up in the sky.

LEVINE:

Oh.

KOCH:

So I remember that.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

KOCH:

And then, as I said, I remember the air raid shelter and —

LEVINE:

What — what was that like?

KOCH:

Well, we went down some stairs. It was outside in the yard because it — it was like a mound, you know, and you went down the stairs. That's all I remember, a door, and inside we had canned goods and a flashlight. And I don't remember really too much about it. But we did have a couple of air raids while I was still there.

LEVINE:

Oh.

KOCH:

And I remember in the middle of the night we had to get up. (chuckles) And the first thing my mother grabbed was her fur coat. And I can remember that. I don't remember anything el — but she grabbed her fur coat and we went down into the air raid shelter and we had to stay there. But that's the only time I can remember —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

— you know, going into the air raid shelter.

LEVINE:

And what was it like being in there and how long were you there?

KOCH:

I have no idea how long. It was dark in there. I — I don't know if we had a lantern or what. We must have had some light in there. But I can't remember —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

— you know, what it was like.

LEVINE:

Do you remember people — grownups talking? Or were people frightened? I mean, did you feel fe — fearful?

KOCH:

No. I don't think we — you know, we were young enough. We really didn't think too much about it. We just never knew too much about it. You know, in those days, grownups talked between themselves. Children were never included in grownup conversation.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

KOCH:

So, you know, we weren't included in that. I don't know if my sister remembers knowing anything about the war, you know, so to speak, or what, or even hearing our parents talking about it.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

I just know that these events happened and I never questioned or asked. And just went along with what was going on. And we were there — war started there in September, 1939.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And you see, we had come to the United States before that. We had come on the Queen Mary, orig — the original Queen Mary — to visit our relatives. We had relatives in New York. And we came and that was our first visit to New York.

LEVINE:

And when was that?

KOCH:

You know, it's funny. I have the — I have the thing from the —

LEVINE:

Ship?

KOCH:

— ship. I have it inside. I'll have to show it to you later.

LEVINE:

Okay, yeah.

KOCH:

If you'd like to see it. It's the passenger list.

LEVINE:

Great.

KOCH:

And — 1937. Might have been 1937 but I'm not quite sure but it has it on there. And so we visited our relatives and then we went back to England. I do remember my parents talking about immigrating to the United States eventually. They had planned to c — to go to the United States. So when war was declared, I think my father at the time had been discussing moving to the United States before war was declared. But in the meantime, another incident that happened, when the raids started in London, they — they got all the children, or as many as they could, to homes out in the country. Did you ever see the movie, "Broomsticks and" — "Bedknobs and Broomsticks" or something like that by Walt Disney? And Angela Lansbury was in it. Well, this is a typical thing, what happened, because she lived in the country and she got three children from London that were evacuated to her home. And it was their experiences. You know, it was like a little story. But we were evacuated, my sister and I. And I remember we got on a big bus, like a Greyhound bus. And I remember seeing my dad crying — my mother and dad. And my dad was crying; he was really upset. And we went out to this farm and I don't know where it was. It was in the country and I remember the house sort of had a thatched roof. And I can't remember the man and the lady. They had no other children. But I remember the man had a motorcycle because I remember he gave me a ride on it. I can remember that. And we were upstairs, in a bedroom upstairs. Well, we stayed — I don't know if it was a week. I don't know if it was — my mother and father came to get us.

LEVINE:

Because they — they couldn't stand that you were away?

KOCH:

They didn't — right. They didn't want us to be separated and not know what was going on and whatever. But this is what they did with the children of London at that time.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And so I think that's when my father and mother decided that we were coming to the United States -- and get out of the war. So they, evidently, wrote my aunt and uncle, who had no children, in Cleveland, Ohio, because in those days you had to be sponsored. And they, I — I assume, said okay. You know, it was all right to come. My dad had planned to follow us so he was sending my mother and my sister and I ahead. And he had the house and his business, you know, and so forth. So he couldn't leave that suddenly. And all I remember is that we left from Southampton.

LEVINE:

So the plan was that — that your father would take care of business or sell things or get rid of the house or whatever, tie up everything. And then he would follow and you would all stay in Cleveland.

KOCH:

Right, that's what the plan was.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

So I remember on — being on the gangplank and seeing my dad. And he was (voice breaking) — he was — you know, he was upset. He was crying. And — but I didn't understand what was going on.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

You know. I guess — so we were on the ship. And they had a sister ship that was supposed to leave. I'm trying to remember if it — we were supposed to leave first. We were supposed to leave second and the sister ship was supposed to leave first. And it had something to do with the gold bullion in London. They were shipping it to New York on our ship, I guess it was, with all these children. At the time, they were sending children to Australia and some to the United States. And we had — were going to the United States. And this was the first shipload of children to leave London at the time. And so our ship was delayed and the other ship went out. And the Germans were waiting in the channel because they knew this was occurring with the children, and they were going to torpedo the ship, which was a very good way of demoralizing the people of London, you see. They knew that we were going. And so they torpedoed the ship that went in our place. So, anyway, I don't remember too much about the crossing except that we had to have the life jackets on at all times. I remember in the cabin that my mother and sister and I were in, I was supposed to sleep in the bunk and I was scared. So my mother made me a bed on the floor. And I remember my head was against the dresser drawers there and that's how I slept. And I know we had lifeboat drills a lot and we — wherever we went, we had to wear the life jackets. And then when we got to New York, they had a big fanfare going on, because they were greeting the ship with the children. And my dad said he saw us on TV. They had the — you know, the RKO News or whatever in those days. Of course, there was no television but at the movies, you know, they had the news. And he saw my sister and I and he said that there was a representative of the King of England, a cousin or someone, that was meeting the children. And I — my sister happened to be right up front there. And he said he saw him pat my head — you know, pat me on the head. And then from New York, of course, then we went into Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

Which everybody had to go through. And you had to be checked from head to foot. And if you had anything, they would not allow you in the country.

LEVINE:

Do you remember the examination?

KOCH:

I remember being in a cubicle. I remember a cubicle and there was a doctor and he wore white — long coat. We had to take all our clothes off. We had to strip. And I can't remember what he did. I'm sure he looked in our throats and ears and whatever and our scalp and skin and everything. You couldn't have any kind of — anything wrong with you. They — they were very, very strict in those days. And then from there we went over to the train station. And we went to Cleveland where my aunt and uncle was waiting for my mother, sister and I. But in the meantime, what happened to my father, when the war escalated they forbade any man from the age of sixteen to sixty to leave the country. See, and I — I'm — I try to figure out how my — I — my mother and father must have been in their thirties at the time. They must have been in their thirties. So my father was stuck over there and we were over in the United States. And that's how it stayed during the war.

LEVINE:

Were you — were you able to communicate with him during the war?

KOCH:

Oh, well, my mother and father wrote all the time. Of course, there was no other way to communicate. You know, there was — as far as I know. But my mother had a lot of letters. In fact, well, I have a letter from 1945, I think it is, but not during the war. But they wrote all the time. My mother and father wrote all the time.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. Well, just to backtrack a little bit. When — do you remember leaving? Do you remember, like, leaving your home and going to the boat? Do you remember —

KOCH:

I — I really don't remember. I think it was — I can't remember at all. I think we were on a train. We went on the train. We must have gone on the train from Victoria Station, I believe, and gone to Southampton. It must have been that way. I don't remember the train ride.

LEVINE:

And did your father go with you to Southampton?

KOCH:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Oh, yeah.

LEVINE:

Do you remember anything you took as a — as a little girl?

KOCH:

I remember I took my Teddy bear. (laughs)

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

I had a Teddy bear that I slept with. And I had that Teddy bear for so many years. I don't know what happened to it. But I took my Teddy bear.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

That's — well, we couldn't take very much. All you could take was — I don't even know how many suitcases we were allowed. I'm sure not very many.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

Maybe one per person or something like that.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. And how about your mother? Well, I guess the plan would have been that your father was going to send things? Or —

KOCH:

Well, I don't think he — you know, it was very expensive in those days. I don't think they had the means of sending too much. But he did used to send us every year a suit that he'd have made for my mother, my sister and I. And we'd get one once a year. And — but, you know, you couldn't send money out of the country because, first of all, you couldn't exchange it, as far as I know. Now, what went on between my mother and father, I have no idea.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

But my mother got a — a part-time job or whatever when we were staying with my a — aunt and uncle anyway. So I'm sure — and then eventually we got a — our own apartment. So whether my father sent money to my mother, I don't know.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

He might have been able to s — he might have been able to send — exchange some pounds for dollars over there and send it to my mother. Maybe they allowed that for the people that were sent, you know, overseas. They had to have some kind of money, I would think. Maybe they allotted them a certain amount of pounds that they could change into dollars.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And what about the children? Did you have — on — aboard ship, did you have contact with the young children?

KOCH:

I don't remember. I really can't remember.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

All I remember is, you know, what I told you. I can't remember anything else.

LEVINE:

Do you remember when you got to Ellis Island, like anything about the other children that were aboard?

KOCH:

No.

LEVINE:

Or who — who met — besides the kings —

KOCH:

Well, you know, it was so much confusion. You have to remember, there were hundreds and hundreds of children. And I don't know how many hundreds of children were on that ship. And when you're let off, you know how it is even today, when you're let off a ship there's a lot of confusion. And then, of course, you don't know where to go. I think they had us in a room. You know, like in a holding room, so to speak, and whatever. And then they would assign you to a certain doctor, you know. When it was your time they would take you to wherever you had to go to see the doctor. And after that, I think they took us downstairs and must have checked my mother's, you know, papers and whatever, where we were going, you know.

LEVINE:

Were there other mothers also on —

KOCH:

Well, it was all moth — well, mothers and children, yes.

LEVINE:

It — there — it wasn't just children.

KOCH:

It wasn't just children.

LEVINE:

[unclear]

KOCH:

But I think there were a lot of children. But you know, after the war I became friends with a girl that had the same experience, only they went to New York. And she — her and her brother and her mother went. So I think they were sending the mothers out of the country with the children.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

You know, the women that wanted to leave.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

You know.

LEVINE:

But they might not have been in the same position as your family in the sense that they decided they wanted to imm — I mean — immigrate --

KOCH:

Oh, I'm sure not. You know, I'm sure not. It was just a matter of safety because London was going to be blitzed, you know, and they hadn't started the — the heavy bombing yet. And, you know, London is — is like New York City.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

You know, it's so compact and all and so many people living there. So they wanted to protect the children. What were they going to do with the kids? And — and I'm sure some children went alone but I think the majority went with the mothers.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

I think — I think the mothers went with the chil — I can't remember children roaming around by themselves. I'm sure they must have had the mothers go with them.

LEVINE:

Were the chil — were there any other children and mothers or families that went to Cleveland?

KOCH:

Not that I know of. I — we never met anybody.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. And how were you treated? Did you have to stay at Ellis Island at all?

KOCH:

No. We didn't have to stay overnight.

LEVINE:

And how were you treated generally? Did you — do —

KOCH:

I don't remember. I guess all right. You know, we were frightened. We were scared. It was so different. We didn't know what was going on. I — I can't speak for my sister because I don't know what she thought and all. But she was surprised that I remembered so much.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

KOCH:

And I had all these memorabilia things. And I don't even remember I had them until I started going through all this. And here, she was shocked when she saw (chuckles) the pictures I had and — and the — and the passenger list from the ships that we were on, because we — we were back and forth across the ocean five times.

LEVINE:

Oh.

KOCH:

See?

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

So — and I have a lot of — not a lot, but I've got some of the memorabilia.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

I kept.

LEVINE:

So — so when you arrived in — in Cleveland by train —

KOCH:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

Did some — did someone greet you or —

KOCH:

Well, my — my aunt and uncle came to meet us —

LEVINE:

At the station?

KOCH:

Right, uh-hmm. And then took us — they lived in an apartment.

LEVINE:

And do you remember any things that struck you as new and different those first days or months, even, about being in this country?

KOCH:

I — the language was funny. (chuckles) I remember — see, when I was starting — when I went to school — when I started school in September, I hadn't turned nine yet, was just before my ninth birthday. And I went to the school and everybody was so nice to me, you know, here. I was little anyway for my age, which was, you know — I'm short. And I had this English accent and they thought it was really neat. But, you know, like when somebody would mention a bum, you know, as a tramp, whatever, well, a bum in England is not — it's what you sit on, right? I was so shocked. I thought that was terrible. And when they'd say something was loud, you know, or, like, "Your shirt is loud," or whatever, I couldn't get the meaning of that. And truck was a different word because we called it lorry. You know, it was a lorry.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And the hood of a car is a bonnet. And, you know, that's what struck me the most, the — the language was different.

LEVINE:

Did — did kids tease you or they — were they nice to you?

KOCH:

Oh, they were nice to me.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

You know, it's funny. I went to my high school reunion — one high school reunion. And some of the kids that I knew from elementary school were there. And there was this one boy that was in the class in the third grade when I first came. And he said he remembered when the teacher got up and introduced me to the class. And he said he felt so sorry for me because I looked so little and sad. (laughs) And I don't remember that. But he remembered that all those years.

LEVINE:

Wow.

KOCH:

I thought that was very nice, you know.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

And had some other nice experiences with those same kids. In fact, one of the girls that I still — ladies I still write to, I met when I came over from England and went to elementary school. And we still write to each other.

LEVINE:

Wow, hmm.

KOCH:

So —

LEVINE:

So where in Cleveland wh — did you settle?

KOCH:

Cleveland is on the north — northeast Ohio. It's on the lake. Lake--Lake Erie.

LEVINE:

And what — what part of Cleveland?

KOCH:

Ah, let's see. It was 140 th and Kinsman. I remember that.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

KOCH:

And the school I went to was — okay — Robert Fulton Elementary School.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

And I started in the third — 3B, because at the time they had B and A, you know.

LEVINE:

Right.

KOCH:

In those days. So I was in 3B -- I remember that.

LEVINE:

And did — did — were there any other people who had come from London that — that you —

KOCH:

Never met anybody.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Never met anybody from London.

LEVINE:

So did — did you get to go back before your father c —

KOCH:

Oh, yeah. We — see, we stayed in Cleveland until the war was over.

LEVINE:

Do you remem —

KOCH:

The war was over in June.

LEVINE:

Do you remember that, when the war was o —

KOCH:

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I have — I have pictures and I have a lot of stuff in there. The war was over in June and we went back in September. And I didn't want to go back. And I was really upset because I was Americanized and I was a teenager. And I had all my friends again and I had to leave everyb — body. We went — and I remember this vividly because my best girlfriend and my boyfriend that I had at the time went to the railroad station with us. And we were taking the train to New York because we were leaving out of New York to go back to England. And that was very difficult. And I used to roller-skate in those days. I don't know whether this is pertinent but what happened, my sister and I had to go that night to say goodbye to our friends. And I tripped and fell and got kicked in the face by a skate. (chuckles) And I had to get — go home in a taxi. And the taxi driver had to carry me in the house and my mother almost had a stroke. (laughs) So we sat up all night in the train with ice packs because I had a broken nose.

LEVINE:

Oh.

KOCH:

So anyway, I remember that. And the first thing she did when we got to the ship was have the ship's doctor check me out. And what can you do? You know. So he said, "Well, when she's eighteen you have her nose — have surgery on her nose." That was it. So I went back to England and I had black eye. I had two black eyes and a broken nose and all this swelled up face and whatever. And my father hadn't seen me since I was going on nine years old. (laughs) So —

LEVINE:

What — what was the ship that you took back?

KOCH:

Okay. The Transylvania.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. And were there — were there any — any specific group of passengers that you recall on that voyage?

KOCH:

Wait a minute. What — was it the Transylvania? No. I'm trying to remember the name because I know we were — no, we went back — we w — maybe it was the Transylvania went over. We went back on the S.S. America. I have the pictures in there and I have the thing from the last dinner. You know, they have people sign. The reason I remember too because I got friendly with some of the sailors on the ship. You know, they were, like, eighteen and I was fourteen. And we exchanged — we exchanged addresses. Wait a minute. END OF SIDE A, TAPE 1 BEGIN SIDE B, TAPE 1

KOCH:

Let me — let me think about that. I'm getting confused. Was that the second time or the — we went back. No, we didn't either. See, we've been across five times. I'm trying to remember. When we went — went back on the S.S. America's when we went back. Or was it — okay. Let me — let me think about this because I'm getting confused. We were on one ship called the Fionia, which was the ship that belonged to the King of Denmark. And I think that's the ship that we went back on. Yes, okay. And I have a picture of that too. It was the Fionia and it was a little tiny ship. And it belonged to the King of Denmark. It was one of his, like, luxury yachts. And I don't know how we got to go on it. And there was only, oh, twenty-six, twenty-eight, passengers, very small ship. And I got friendly with one of the s — sailors. His name was Tag Christiansen, because I have some letters that we — you know, we corresponded.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

KOCH:

And then he sent me pictures of the liberation of his town. And I have those also.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

KOCH:

So it was a rocky journey and I think my mother and sister were sort of seasick. I didn't get seasick. We were on that ship, I think, ten days or seven — seven — ten days, it might have been. I have that also written down. So — then when we — we got back to England and my father picked us up. You know, he was waiting for us and we got to London and walked in and all my aunts and uncles were sitting around the table waiting for us. (chuckles)

LEVINE:

Oh. Well, what was it like seeing your father?

KOCH:

I didn't remember him.

LEVINE:

Really?

KOCH:

Yeah. And I was very unhappy.

LEVINE:

Because you didn't want to go back.

KOCH:

I didn't want to go back. And I'm sort of a quiet, introverted person. It's very hard for me to get out and meet people and make friends right away. And as I said, I didn't remember my father and he was like a stranger. And all these faces of my aunts and uncles and I didn't remember any, because, you know, nine to fourteen, that's your growing-up stages.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And of course, we were very different from when we left. My father remembered me as a little girl. Not that I was that big but I was a teenager. And it wasn't real good at f — it was very tough going back. And of course, you know, it was — had been bombed out a lot. I — we were used to — oh, the rationing was nothing, you know. You could go buy candy or whatever you want. And — and to go back to a country that had, you know, been devastated and you see the — wherever we went, the wrecked buildings. You know, the rubble and whatever. (chuckles) My sister and I went in the store to buy candy and she said, "Where's your coupon?" We said, "What coupon?" She says, "You've got to have rationing coupons for candy." Well, you know, we didn't know.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

We weren't used to that. And it was — it was very difficult.

LEVINE:

So did — did you go then to school?

KOCH:

Yeah, I — when I left Cleveland, I was in the seventh grade. Was it seventh or the eighth? Ah, let me see. Maybe I was going into the eighth grade. I might have been one — one month into the eighth grade. [unclear]. And when I went back to England, my father and mother put me into a school that you had to wear a uniform. You know, most English schools, you wear a uniform. So I had the — the navy blue jumper, you know, with the knee socks and the blazer and the hat, you know, and the whole business. I wore lipstick. The first thing they made me do was wash my face at school. And I didn't like that. (chuckles) And I had nail polish on. And then I had to take the nail polish off. See, and that — (chuckles) that started out in a bad — bad foot right away. And I didn't want to be there anyway. And I cried all the time. I didn't want to go to school. I didn't want to be there. I was depressed. And when we went back, my father had sold our house and he was living in a one-bedroom apartment two blocks from Hyde Park, which is the West End of London. And it was a beautiful apartment building. President Roosevelt's son, Elliot Roosevelt, lived there during the war with his wife. And she was a movie actress and I cannot remember her name. But it was a very nice place but this was a tiny, tiny apartment.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

So there was four of us in this. And I would walk in Hyde Park every day after school and cry and walk and cry and cry. And I was so depressed and my parents were very concerned for me.

LEVINE:

And what about your mother? Was she — was she —

KOCH:

Not happy, really, about being back because she was Americanized and she'd been on her own for all those years and — and, you know, in those days in England men were the — sort of the head of the house. And being on her own, she got to do what she had to do without anybody telling her what to do. You know how that is.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

KOCH:

So when she went back to England, my mother and father fought a lot.

LEVINE:

Now, did you — had your mother been working when she was in Cleveland?

KOCH:

Yeah. Yeah, she worked.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

And had she worked when she was in London —

KOCH:

Never. No.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Not from the time she was married.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

She didn't work.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And —

LEVINE:

And how about your sister? How was — what was her response to going back?

KOCH:

You know, I really don't know. I —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

I really don't know how she felt about it. She was about — let's see — about seventeen and a half, seventeen, seventeen and a half. So, well, she — see, my sister's a different person too. She's very outgoing and she can — she meets people and she can talk to anybody. And I'm very shy about it. So I don't think she had the problem I had.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And when she went back, she decided — I have a cousin over there that's a beautician. And he — she liked beauty — you know, doing beauty. So he talked her into going to beauty school. So she went into beauty s — beauty school over there.

LEVINE:

Oh.

KOCH:

See, in England in those days — I don't know how it is now — you graduate from school at fourteen. So you either go to work, go to college or, you know, apprentice at something.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

Right.

KOCH:

So she was okay. I don't remember her ever having a problem.

LEVINE:

So — so what happened then? Did y — your father was really preparing to leave. I mean, he had sold —

KOCH:

Well —

LEVINE:

— the house and —

KOCH:

Well, as far as I know, it was tabled then because, of course, he couldn't leave the country. When we came back, I don't know what my mother and father's plans were. As I said, even as teenagers, we — we weren't into my parents' affairs.

LEVINE:

So what happened then? How — what did —

KOCH:

Well, my father and mother were so concerned and I didn't want to go to that school. They took me out of the school and I went to Pitman's College. And there, see, you can go to college at fourteen. And I went to Pitman's College, which was like a college over here but it was — also, they had, like, shorthand — Pitman's shorthand and all that. But I went and took a general college course so, you know, I was with people eighteen, twenty years old, fourteen, my age. And I got to meet this girl, Roz, who had been evacuated like I had, only she had gone to New York. And we got to be friends and my sister met (clears throat) this boy who had been evacuated to Boston. Right? So we got our own little group. (laughs) And it was — it got better because I was happier. I had a friend and the school I went to wasn't rigid and strict like that — the first one my parents sent me to. (clears throat) And I sort of got adjusted. And I did get adjusted and —

LEVINE:

So how long did you stay then before —

KOCH:

Almost two years. And then my mother and father — my mother decided she didn't want to stay in England. But before that, my mother came back to the United States for about three months and left my sister and I with my father. And up until that time we really didn't think too — I don't say we didn't think much of my father. We didn't have any — anything in common with him.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

We couldn't converse. We — we — we thought he was like a stick in the mud. And he was a very prim and proper Englishman, you know, and we had changed so much. So when my mother left and my father had to travel, he had to take my sister and I with. We got to know him. And we — we got to like each other. And we found out he wasn't such a prim and proper Englishman. He was a lot of fun in his own way. And English humor's a little different than American humor. And we just didn't understand it at the time. And my mother and — you know, and he were always bickering so we sort of always sided with my mother, which is natural, you know.

LEVINE:

Yeah. Now, your father was traveling on business or —

KOCH:

Yeah, well, at the time — when we went back he had two businesses. He had the textile business with his two brothers and then they had an import/export business. So he had to do traveling over to the different countries with his — what he was selling. You know, the — the worsteds or the — whatever else, I don't know. So he was left with my sister and I so he had to take us with him. So we went to Ireland and we went to Amsterdam and we went to — oh, I can't think of where else. A few other places. H — Holland. Yeah, Holland. And while he was doing his business he would set us up because we'd always have to stay several days or a week. And he'd always find somebody to be with us, you know.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And so it was sort of nice. And we got to — it was fun.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And we really enjoyed it. So we were settled in. We — (chuckles) I know — and then my mother came back from the United States and she said she wasn't going to stay. We were going back to the United States. And then I didn't want to go again. (laughs) Right?

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And that was tough again because here I had a boyfriend and my girlfriends and, you know, gotten in a routine of life, you know, every — went back to roller-skating. We found a roller-skating rink and we went roller-skating. And we had our own little life again so we were going to be uprooted again and I didn't like it.

LEVINE:

Well, did — how did your father feel about going to the United States?

KOCH:

Oh, he wasn't going.

LEVINE:

He wasn't going. It was your mother who was g — going.

KOCH:

Right.

LEVINE:

And she wanted both of you —

KOCH:

Right.

LEVINE:

— to go.

KOCH:

In other words, she was separating from my father.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And so —

LEVINE:

And — and so did — is — is that what happened?

KOCH:

Yeah, well, what I did, I had — was writing to some — my girlfriends and all. And my girlfriend's mother invited us to come and stay with her till my mother could find an apartment. So that's what we did. We went to stay with my girlfriend's parents.

LEVINE:

In Cleveland?

KOCH:

In Cleveland until my mother got an apartment. Then we moved into the apartment.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And then —

LEVINE:

So — so then did you stay?

KOCH:

Yeah, we stayed in Cleveland, went to school, went back to school, (chuckles) went back to the tenth grade. After I'd been to college I went back to the tenth grade with my old friends, you know. I wasn't in the school district but I — you know, I went on the bus and whatever and graduated high school with my friends from school.

LEVINE:

Wow.

KOCH:

(chuckles) So —

LEVINE:

Well, when you look back on it now, do you think it had an impact on you —

KOCH:

Oh, yeah.

LEVINE:

In what ways, do you think it — it —

KOCH:

Well, I sometimes often wondered, you know, if the war hadn't come along I'd probably be in England and how different my life would have been. And of course, your whole life changes and that was for thousands of other people too that were caught up in the war. But I had — you know, my aunt stayed. They never left — they never left their hu — husbands and, you know, they stayed in London. In fact, my aunt brought that up to me that, you know, she stayed with my uncle [unclear]. And she had three boys and they never left but my mother did. My mother was the only one of all our family that left.

LEVINE:

Yes.

KOCH:

And I think they sort of resented her leaving my dad.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

You know. And, you know, but in a way, I guess we were very lucky that we got out of there when we did because it was really very, very bad. And my father used to tell us stories about what happened, you know, during the blitz and — and so forth. And so we were fortunate in that respect but it ruined our family life, you know.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And it was hard for me. I don't know about my sister but I had a hard time with it because I — it takes me a while to adjust to a new situation or a new place. I hated moving after that. You know, it just —

LEVINE:

Hmm.

KOCH:

It — it — it just — especially when you're a kid, I think. You know.

LEVINE:

Right.

KOCH:

And you don't know what's going on and, of course, you don't ask. So you just do what you're told, you know, and there's no questions. There never was. We never — I can't ever remember questioning my parents about anything.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. And how about citizenship? Did —

KOCH:

I became a citizen when I was twenty-one.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

And do you — do you feel, you know, a part of you is [unclear]?

KOCH:

Oh, I'm very — I'm very happy I'm an American. That's — that's how I feel. But I still feel British underneath. I mean, I will always be — I say European. That's how I feel. It's just something that's in me that I still feel — England. I'm in — I'm English. That's how I feel but I'm very happy I'm an American. And as I said, I've been back several times and I went to see the house that I lived in and all, and it was very nostalgic and I found the school. I couldn't find it at first and they had made it into a senior citizen place, and then they had closed it and it was boarded up. And I couldn't find it. But it was — it brought back a lot of good memories when — you know, when I lived in that house. It was a l — it was a very nice house. And I just thought about the good times that we had when, you know, that I'm glad we got — went back and I got to know my father.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And we got to be friends after — you know, after a while. And — but, yeah, it's — it's sort of — I — I often think that people that live in America all their lives and all and complain don't know how lucky they are. See. Unless you come from another country, you don't realize how much you have here.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

See, when we went back to England, it — you know, during the war, I remember people used to complain about — you know, when we were in the United States about things. "Oh, I can't get, you know, a pair of shoes or gasoline," or j — just different thing. And then I went back to London and I saw what those people went through and lived through and heard some of the tales that my father told me. And I thought, you know, 'People have it so good here and they just don't know.'

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And it upsets me when I hear people complain.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. Yeah.

KOCH:

And you just don't know until you — you've lived through it. My dad told me they never knew if they were going to live the next day or not, whether they'd be bombed, and how many times he slept in the underground. Or they'd be in a movie theater or — or — or restaurant and the bombing would start. You know, and they'd have to get under the table. And he said you just lived for that — that day. You never ever thought of tomorrow or planned for anything.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

KOCH:

And then you think of all the children that were still there, or families. My aunt's next door neigh — house next door to them got bombed and people were killed, people she'd known, you know, for many, many years. And my dad told me this movie theater that he used to go to that got bombed, you know, with the people in the theater. But he said, you know, people went on living like, you know, everyday living, which you had to do.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

KOCH:

So, you know.

LEVINE:

How about your mother in this country? W — did she — did she go back to work and did she stay an independent —

KOCH:

Yeah, she stayed independent. She got a small apartment place, bought it, like a house. And my father always helped her, always sent money. Then you could do that, I guess. And he'd come over once a year and visit us and stay for maybe a week or so. And he visited. They didn't get divorced right away. And — but she never wanted to go back to England. And he thought about coming back — moving to the States. But then, seeing he didn't have a family — see, it was different when we were a family — and I know he asked her to remarry him so we could be a family and all. And she didn't want to.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And eventually, he moved. That's how I got to Florida because he moved to Florida, see.

LEVINE:

Oh.

KOCH:

Eventually. He remarried and he moved to — to the East Coast of Florida, Hialeah. Yeah.

LEVINE:

I see.

KOCH:

So — but she — my mother never remarried but she was independent, you know, and just — I think she went back — I — I think she went on a tour once, went back to London for a couple days. But she never went back.

LEVINE:

Hmm. Did — did you have her — a hero or heroine? Was there anybody that you either knew or you — or you knew about who — who you looked up to who —

KOCH:

In the United States, you mean?

LEVINE:

Either place.

KOCH:

Well, of course, we all looked up to the, you know, Ch — Winston Churchill. We thought, oh, he was, you know, like — nobody like him.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And I remember that and I remember going to the coronation of the king when the brother — his brother abdicated. I was a little girl then. We were there. And they closed all the schools and I thought that was really wonderful. Of course, when you live in London and you have a royal family with princes and — and the Princess Margaret, was close to my age, you know. And Princess Elizabeth was close to my sister's age so we used to pretend that we were the princesses, you know. And that's sort of like a fairy —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

— fairy tale. I think that's why the English people like their King and Queens and all like, because it is —

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

— in modern day, having fairy tale. (chuckles)

LEVINE:

Did — was there anything either comparable or — or that could (chuckles) — could equal that in — in this country?

KOCH:

No.

LEVINE:

No?

KOCH:

I don't think so. (chuckles)

LEVINE:

Yeah.

KOCH:

Nothing that I can remember. Of course, I was a big movie — you know, I liked to go to movies. And I had the biggest crush on Van Johnson when I was a teenager, so if you want to call —

LEVINE:

(chuckles)

KOCH:

— that somebody. Do you know, I found — I found a picture that I had that I had sent — you know, how you write to them and they send you an autographed picture?

LEVINE:

Yes, I do.

KOCH:

Do you know, 1940 -something, I found that picture. I still have it. (laughs) My sister will have a fit when I show it to her. But, you know, I was into movies and all that stuff.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

But there was nobody that I can remember. I know my mother thought, you know, President Roosevelt was — and I remember him. You know, that was the figure that everybody looked up to.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

But being a teenager and all that, you know, I wasn't interested in that. I was interested in my friends and —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

— school and —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

— whatever.

LEVINE:

So can you remember, like, when you changed or when you felt really American? I mean —

KOCH:

When I went back to England. (laughs)

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-huh. Interesting.

KOCH:

That's when I really felt —

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Yeah. Because, you know, you just assimilate and you — you copy the other children. I didn't want to be different. And so, of course you want to dress like your friends and you talk like your friends. And — and you don't even know you're doing — you're picking up, because, you know, when I went back to London I started picking up an English accent again.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Because when I came back to the — America again, I had — I had a little bit of an English accent.

LEVINE:

Right.

KOCH:

And you just — you just do that and you don't even know you're doing that. But it was when I went back to England, I knew how American I was. (laughs)

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. So — so you went back. You graduated high school. And then did you work?

KOCH:

Here?

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

This — in the United States. Well, I got married.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

So I didn't work.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, uh-huh.

KOCH:

And had my children and, you know, lived in Cleveland till we moved to Florida, when my dad had moved, you see.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

And I hadn't seen my dad in years. And we came down on a trip, a vacation, and we liked it so much that we decided to move down.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Down here.

LEVINE:

So, let's see. What was your husband's name and your children's names?

KOCH:

Okay. My husband's name was Otis Hundley. And I have Diane and Dale and Laura and Jamie. And they all live over on the East Coast of Florida.

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-huh.

KOCH:

And they're very happy that I moved to Florida. (chuckles) Two of them were born in Cleveland. The two oldest were born in Cleveland.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

And the two youngest were born in Florida. And my oldest son, Dale — it's — it's funny about this. I never thought any of my children would ever, ever get to England. Well, he — he's a boat captain. And he has a job with a — a very wealthy, wealthy family in Europe. And this is his fifth year — I think it is. And he'll — he goes over in May and he works till October. And he's the captain of this private yacht. And when they had the celebration of the fiftieth anniversary of World War II, was — he went over to London —

LEVINE:

Wow.

KOCH:

— through his job. And he'd never been there. None of my children have been there. And he was there for a week. And then he picked up the — you know, the boat and so forth. Well, now he goes to London all the time. And he's been to the places where I was. And I have cousins over there. (clears throat) And he finally met his cousin, which is my first cousin, and two aunts la — just last year.

LEVINE:

Wonderful.

KOCH:

So it's sort of neat that at least one of my children has been —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

— to see where, you know, I was born and their grandparents. You know, both my parents were born there. And now I'm hoping this year I'm going to take my husband to London (chuckles) because he's never been there. He's been to other places but he hasn't been to London and I'd sort of like him to see what it's like. It's a wonderful place.

LEVINE:

And what — what is your husband's name?

KOCH:

My husband's name is Ernest Koch.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And he's from Pennsylvania.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Originally from Pennsylvania but he's lived in Florida about twenty four years now.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

And so I'd like him — you know, I think everybody likes to show s — the closest person to them where they're from.

LEVINE:

Sure.

KOCH:

And where they lived and where they grew up and — and I like to do that too, because I've never forgotten, you know. It's something I never will forget. And I love going back there. And when I go back there, it's — it just feels like home.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

Even though it hasn't been in so many year —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

It just is like home.

LEVINE:

And how about your mother and father? Are they alive?

KOCH:

No, they're both gone now.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

And did they — did your — your father actually did settle here at —

KOCH:

He settled in Florida.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Right. He — he married a — a girl from London — you know, a lady they knew in London. And they settled in Florida.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. Hmm. Well, is there anything else that you can think of relevant to changing your life —

KOCH:

(chuckles)

LEVINE:

Sort of back and forth (chuckles) a few times.

KOCH:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

And being essentially American — I mean, do you have dual citizenship or —

KOCH:

No. No, I'm —

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

— American citizen.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

Naturalized. I remember seeing the Statue of Liberty when we came back. And I have a letter from my dad in there that he wrote to my mother, "I guess Sheila, when she got off the boat, kissed the ground," (laughs) which I did. I — because I always said, "If I ever get back to America I'm going to kiss the ground," you know. I mean, I loved America. I was — I was — I was getting adjusted to London because I knew I had to be there and I had it in my mind this was where I was going to be. And even though I didn't want to leave, I remembered I loved America too. And I did. We got off the ship. My sister and I both did that. We kissed the ground. And I sent my girlfriend — and it's in the letter, "Did Sheila" — oh, "When Roz got Sheila's letter" — I think it is — "with a handful of dirt from the United States, she started crying." So (laughter) — so — so it was sort of — it was sort of neat that I found these letters that Mother had.

LEVINE:

Wonderful.

KOCH:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

KOCH:

And I have the letters, you know, concerning our ship, you know, coming back and — and all that he had to do to make arrangements for us to come back. As I say, my sister was shocked. She didn't know I had all this stuff.

LEVINE:

Wow. Well, I want to thank you so much —

KOCH:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

— for a really unique —

KOCH:

(chuckles) Well —

LEVINE:

It — it's a unique story connected with Ellis Island.

KOCH:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

You know, and — and so it's a — it's really a welcome —

KOCH:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

— addition to the — to the archive.

KOCH:

Oh, well, I didn't think I'd be that interesting. But I just want you to know that when I was on Ellis Island and I went there and I saw the train station, it was very emotional.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

It really — I got very upset. I don't know if — if it was because it was good or bad or what. But it just brought all those memories back, you know.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

KOCH:

And I don't think you ever forget, you know, no matter how little it is. There's a lot of things that, when you see, it triggers — you know, triggers the memories. So I guess I must have been upset maybe when we were there, not knowing where we were going and what was happening and not understanding. Maybe if I'd been a little older, I'd have understood what was going on, but I didn't understand.

LEVINE:

Yeah, I always feel when I look over the — the interviews and the transcripts of interviews that there's — often, there's a theme of separation —

KOCH:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

— that's — that's really poignant —

KOCH:

I think that's — yes.

LEVINE:

— to a lot of people.

KOCH:

And, you know, one time — oh, maybe ten years ago, I was talking to somebody about my father, you know. Whatever. And it — I just got so upset. And I think — you know, I never really felt like we were so different from other families, even though we didn't have a father around. I can't remember, as a child, it ever bothering me. But, you know, when I was an adult it did. Now, maybe it's because daughters are closer to their fathers or the father figure. But I didn't have a brother either.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

So we didn't have any men, so to speak, in our lives.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

KOCH:

And I think I must have missed that and not realized it, you know.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. Okay. Well, we've talked for an hour.

KOCH:

(chuckles)

LEVINE:

And we're at the end of the tape so I want to —

KOCH:

Okay. (chuckles)

LEVINE:

— thank you very much.

KOCH:

Well, I want to show you —

LEVINE:

Okay. Let me just sign off.

KOCH:

Okay.

LEVINE:

I've been speaking with Sheila Koch, who came in 1940 from England on the first ship that brought children —

KOCH:

Children out of London.

LEVINE:

— out of London during — well, before the bombing but —

KOCH:

Right.

LEVINE:

— for that reason. Okay, and this is Janet Levine and we are in Fort Myers, Florida on March 14 th , 1999. END OF INTERVIEW