CARVALHO:

Well, I remember, if you can see any one of them, that you can look out the window and see the Statue of Liberty. Because I remember . . .

DE PALO:

You were on that side, then.

CARVALHO:

Then I had to be on this side. Because that's where we went to, when you woke up in the morning.

SIGRIST:

Well, why don't we go, and we'll see.

CARVALHO:

One place I would like to see now . . . Are you going to edit this?

SIGRIST:

Excuse me?

CARVALHO:

Because I don't want to say nothing wrong in here.

SIGRIST:

Oh, don't worry. You say whatever you want to say. It doesn't matter.

CARVALHO:

Because I come out with very frank things.

SIGRIST:

That's quite all right.

CARVALHO:

I won't curse or anything. I'll just . . .

SIGRIST:

That's quite all right. What would you like to see?

CARVALHO:

The main room upstairs is where we used to get our shock treatments.

SIGRIST:

I see. Well, we're going to try to find it, which room. ( everyone continues walking )

CARVALHO:

Fascinating though, really.

SIGRIST:

I think in a way this is much more interesting than when they restored the other buildings.

CARVALHO:

But this is, see, this is only one phase that I'm seeing. It was other things besides that, before this it was something else. I can't remember what it was before the Marine Hospital. And it was just, you know, a lot of people would say, "Well, I would have rather done this, or done that." I am so happy that this happened to me when it happened to me, as a young boy. I've learned so much about people and relating back to when I was sick.

SIGRIST:

And how old were you when you were here again? I forgot.

CARVALHO:

About eighteen.

SIGRIST:

You were eighteen.

CARVALHO:

Just about eighteen, nineteen.

SIGRIST:

And you had come from . . .

CARVALHO:

The Merchant Marine. I was in the Merchant Marine. We made a few trips and we got back from the Philippines. And what had happened, I got sick at home, and my mother and father being . . .

SIGRIST:

In Jersey.

CARVALHO:

In New Jersey, yeah. And my mother and father being not learned people, my father was . . . You know, almost all of them are identical. ( referring to the rooms ) Yeah, this is, uh, (?) didn't have that type of door on it. We had either a closed door with a window door in it. It was a locked ward, you know, but they could see right in it. There was a different type of door on it, that I recall. But this was all lined with beds in here. And I used to have a bed approximately right over there the first time, right in that corner. I don't know whether this is the same room. But then I was transferred over to a bed here.

SIGRIST:

You started off over there, and then your bed was . . .

CARVALHO:

Was right over there. Right by the door coming in. That I can remember, my mother coming in.

SIGRIST:

Did you have a nightstand, and a bed and a table and a chair?

CARVALHO:

Yeah, something like a hospital bed. Old, very old, you know, old wire type of. MRS.

CARVALHO:

You know, white . . .

SIGRIST:

And you were allowed right into the ward, yes? MRS.

CARVALHO:

Yeah.

CARVALHO:

They would let her in, and she would remember better than I. I do remember quite a bit, but not that much.

SIGRIST:

And you said that there were wire doors . . .

CARVALHO:

It was either wire or glass. Do you remember the doors, Ang? MRS.

CARVALHO:

I think they were . . .

CARVALHO:

I don't remember them being solid doors. MRS.

CARVALHO:

No, they were, well, you could see through it. You could see through the doors. Now whether . . .

SIGRIST:

And they would give you a key to get in.

CARVALHO:

No. I thought they gave me a key, but it wasn't. What I would do, they knew me because I was dressed. I had clothes on. The chambray shirt and dungarees. And they would let me in and out, because I would be a helper either to the electrician or a plumber or something. MRS.

CARVALHO:

You know, if they had doors like this, there may have been a wire door besides that . . .

CARVALHO:

Besides that. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Or a glass door. Because I remember seeing through, and I remember it like coming out there would be a bathroom or showers to the left.

CARVALHO:

All it was was a hospital room.

SIGRIST:

Was the ward filled? MRS.

CARVALHO:

Oh, yeah. Lots of people.

CARVALHO:

Oh, yeah. When we were there, oh, yeah. It was filled.

SIGRIST:

Who were they? Who were the people who were in this ward? Were they all people from, who were soldiers in World War II or . . . MRS.

CARVALHO:

They were from the Navy.

CARVALHO:

Most of them from the World War II, the fellows that I was with were Corregidor and Bataan and they were on the Bataan March. They were construction workers. MRS.

CARVALHO:

But I think for the Navy, because everything . . .

CARVALHO:

There was a lot of Navy. MRS.

CARVALHO:

. . . was Coast Guard, Navy and Merchant Marine. I don't remember. There was no army in here.

CARVALHO:

Merchant Marine, we had the Merchant Marine Academy at Sheepshead. We had a couple of students that worked too hard and went off their rockers.

SIGRIST:

So were the people who were in your ward here for physical infirmities?

CARVALHO:

Mental. MRS.

CARVALHO:

All mental.

SIGRIST:

It was all mental infirmities.

CARVALHO:

Almost every one was mental.

SIGRIST:

And some worse than others.

CARVALHO:

Oh, yeah. MRS.

CARVALHO:

I think this was mostly a mental hospital.

CARVALHO:

It was mental. It was all locked in. That's why I think the whole hospital was mental, to my recollection. MRS.

CARVALHO:

I don't remember seeing anyone, you know, that were with broken bones. I think they went on to other hospitals for therapy or however they . . .

CARVALHO:

Some of them had physical problems. The one fellow that I was with, Mike Sardone, they busted him up in the war, and he was lame in one leg. And he would go from one to the other, to the hospital bed. But it really was experimental.

SIGRIST:

And because you weren't as bad as some of the others, they allowed you sort of a free run. You said you helped out as an electrician . . .

CARVALHO:

Yeah, or a plumber, whatever.

SIGRIST:

Were there other patients who also?

CARVALHO:

Some of them. Not too many, but there were some.

SIGRIST:

This work program, sort of led to . . .

CARVALHO:

Well, it was a therapy program, actually.

SIGRIST:

Did you get paid even a little bit for doing any of that? No?

CARVALHO:

I never got money here at all. I didn't even get any time for service time.

SIGRIST:

( to MRS.. Carvalho ) Did you get to know any of the other patients who were here? MRS.

CARVALHO:

Well, the ones that were in the room with him, we became friends. Like I said, those that didn't have visitors, we used to incorporate them, and we'd have our picnics outside, but we never got to know them intimately.

SIGRIST:

All basically young men. MRS.

CARVALHO:

All young men. They were all . . .

CARVALHO:

Some younger than me. You'll see a picture of one of them that was very young. MRS.

CARVALHO:

I don't recall, just Jonsey. The, um . . .

CARVALHO:

Jonsey. And the little guy. The little Italian boy. What was it, I can't remember him. Mike Sardone, I remember, because he killed himself in later years. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Yeah, that's the one. He's the one that killed himself.

CARVALHO:

And Jonsey, the colored boy that I was with, or, he was, he came here, he couldn't walk, and there was three of us that got together, and we knew it was a mental blockage, and by the time we left he was on crutches and canes. I took him over to my house. We slept together. I fed him. And we had, he was just a nice guy.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh. Now, on, in one ward, how many nurses would there be, say? There would be on per . . . ?

CARVALHO:

Nurses? The male nurses? There was always, well, there was one big fellow at the door.

SIGRIST:

This was the black gentleman that you spoke of before.

CARVALHO:

Yeah. There was always somebody out there. There was always a guard out there.

SIGRIST:

I see.

CARVALHO:

The nurses themselves, there weren't too many. But there was always three on call, definite, if there was a problem. There was always three guys come running right in.

SIGRIST:

I see. And there was nurses' station somewhere out there. Not in here, necessarily.

CARVALHO:

I don't remember any women.

SIGRIST:

Uh-huh. All gentlemen. MRS.

CARVALHO:

All men, all men.

CARVALHO:

All big, brawny men. I mean, not, eh . . .

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any of their names?

CARVALHO:

They were . . . MRS.

CARVALHO:

No, I think they were the big guys because they had to handle them after they had shock treatments and everything.

DE PALO:

Yes.

CARVALHO:

But those were the guys that laid on you on the shock table. They had to be heavy because I walked in on one of the shock treatments, and these three big guys, minimum of 250 pounds, were off the ground. When they hit you with that shock treatment, you were just fluttering in the air like that there. And these three people were up in the air. They laid pillows on you, laid on top of you, and then they hit you. And it was really experimental. They didn't know, the fellows that I knew, it was something new, just coming out.

SIGRIST:

I see. And you said that this is in an upstairs room somewhere.

CARVALHO:

Yeah. Well, if you want to know just how it was, we'll walk there.

SIGRIST:

Why don't we go and try to find the room and take it from there. ( everyone walks )

CARVALHO:

It was some experience, let me tell you.

SIGRIST:

It really is. ( walking )

GLASGOW:

( to MRS.. Carvalho ) Could you stay close to your husband, because he has the mike. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Oh, okay.

GLASGOW:

Paul, could you stay on this side.

CARVALHO:

Talk loud, Ang. MRS.

CARVALHO:

I always talk loud. That's my problem.

SIGRIST:

( to De Palo) Frank, is this where we should go upstairs? Is this the room?

CARVALHO:

Where these came from, I don't remember. ( walking ) They had a shock room, I kind of remember, where we had the treatment. ( MRS.. Carvalho talks off mike. ) MRS.

CARVALHO:

The second floor must have been just for patients and doctors.

SIGRIST:

They probably didn't invite you. MRS.

CARVALHO:

These may have been the padded rooms, some of them, where they came . . .

CARVALHO:

Was there a hall of some kind here, or a gym of some kind here? A big room, down there? This looks familiar, that I can remember.

SIGRIST:

Well, yes. Here's a big room in here. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Does it look like it's been padded?

SIGRIST:

It's locked. You can't get into it.

FEENEY:

There's one further down, and it's open.

SIGRIST:

All right. Well, let's try the one down the hallway. Because this is the only part of the island . . . ( Break in tape. ) ( walking )

CARVALHO:

This was a locked ward. That's why you see most of the, even in the hallways, you see the, uh, bars or gratings on this so they wouldn't jump out the window or try to, you know, jump through the window.

FEENEY:

Could it have been for detainees?

CARVALHO:

Say again?

FEENEY:

Could it have been for people who were being detained? What year were you here, sir?

CARVALHO:

I'm sorry?

FEENEY:

What year were you here?

SIGRIST:

'48.

CARVALHO:

'47, '48. That's just about when I was here.

FEENEY:

Because it has been suggested at one point that this particular area, with all the caging in the walls, was used during the war for, quote/unquote, "enemy aliens" who were being detained for medical treatment.

CARVALHO:

It may have been that there, but I know I was here right after the war. Because they had a resident area that they called it. They called it a "resident area." There was a lot of things going on here that we didn't know nothing about. That didn't tell us anything. But it was an interesting era to say the least.

SIGRIST:

Look at the little narrow transoms over the door. Just little itty-bitty . . .

CARVALHO:

Well, that's so you couldn't get in or out, you know, it would still let the air in. What I don't understand, though, is the windows. What I recall is there used to be gratings on there, you know, like those gratings out there.

SIGRIST:

Like out in the hallway.

CARVALHO:

Because . . .

SIGRIST:

They might have been removed later, I suppose it's possible.

CARVALHO:

Probably. I don't know just what was going on. But it's one of those that I recall mostly about the treatments . . .

SIGRIST:

I wish we could get you in to one of those rooms.

CARVALHO:

Well, if you can, or if you can't, there's always another time. I'll be willing to make another trip back. The guards come . . .

SIGRIST:

Somebody would come, and . . . MRS.

CARVALHO:

This was probably where the treatments were, and it was out of bounds.

SIGRIST:

I see.

CARVALHO:

I'm almost sure that I recall something like this here where they used to bring us up, you know, coherent or not, you know.

DE PALO:

There's an almost identical staircase on the other side.

CARVALHO:

And then they would take us. I can't remember whether we were sitting or standing in line, waiting in line, just the way we are now, almost. And we would be shooting the bull and everything, waiting for our shock treatments. They would take us, set us up, one at a time, take you into the room. And when you walked in there would be a doctor, male nurse, and three attendants, big attendants. They would salt your head with water salt as you were laying there. And then, they didn't have straps like they have today. The three men just laid on top of you because it was quicker, you know, strapping you up and taking you off. So they just laid on top of you, and then they hit you with whatever they thought was reasonable.

SIGRIST:

How many times did you undergo this?

CARVALHO:

Eighteen times. MRS.

CARVALHO:

See, I thought seventeen. I was wrong. He got an extra one in.

SIGRIST:

That's a lot.

CARVALHO:

That's more, that's something like thirteen times more than any recommended dose. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Yeah. Usually they aren't . . .

SIGRIST:

And always one person at a time, correct?

CARVALHO:

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SIGRIST:

They never did two people in a room.

CARVALHO:

And the only reason I can tell you, by taking the people up, you know, taking these fellows right off the ground, is I got in there prematurely. And when I came in, that guy was in the air, whoever he was. I don't know who he was. But what it was after that, you were out. You were completely out. Then one of the attendants would grab your hands, arms, the other one would grab your legs, pick you off, and that's why I wanted to see this main, it looked like an auditorium to me, or a gymnasium, and just dump you on some old dirty mattress on the floor. And when you went in there, if you were one of the last ones, you had maybe fifteen or twenty guys laying around that floor. And when you got up you got up and said, "Okay." And you said, "Well, where do I go from here?" They said, "You go back to your room." Just stay over here, and they'll let us out one at a time.

SIGRIST:

Why were they doing this? What did they hope to correct by doing this? MRS.

CARVALHO:

These people had had nervous breakdowns. They were trying to get them . . .

CARVALHO:

Well, they called them different than nervous breakdowns at that time. It was, actually, I honestly believe that these doctors were experimenting to see what would or what wouldn't work, because I also had insulin shot. I had a needle every morning, they would give me an insulin shot. Don't forget, I was a lot thinner then. I was about 128 pounds at the time. And it was just a fascinating era.

SIGRIST:

Well, let's go over, down and up to the other room, and see if maybe this is one of the rooms. ( they all walk )

CARVALHO:

Sounds good. Watch that wire, Angie. ( break in tape ) MRS.

CARVALHO:

Oh, he had black hair and black beady eyes that looked like they could see right through you.

SIGRIST:

Was he the only doctor that you dealt with? MRS.

CARVALHO:

That was the only one that I dealt with that had him. I think there were other doctors, but they, I think they had designated patients. So they had their history, because there was always papers, that they, you know, had to write down. I think they were assigned, like, on a one-to-one basis, or each doctor had just so many to cover.

SIGRIST:

I see.

CARVALHO:

It was interesting, though. MRS.

CARVALHO:

It was interesting.

SIGRIST:

But frightening. ( they laugh ) MRS.

CARVALHO:

Frightening is more like it. Interesting.

CARVALHO:

I'd do it all over again. I'd do my whole life over again. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Get out of here!

CARVALHO:

Really, I would. Honestly. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Maybe he does. He's talking like that, he belonged here.

CARVALHO:

I'd do my whole life all over again. ( voices garbled ) MRS.

CARVALHO:

No TV, no radio.

CARVALHO:

It was an interesting life. That part of my life was very interesting. It was a good part of my life. MRS.

CARVALHO:

What was gained out of it, after about a year after, he had no self-confidence, because he was so dependent on the doctors, and what they say, he was so ready, just like people, our generation, and the generation before us, whatever the doctor said, they knew what they were talking about. No one questioned. Today everyone questions. But then the doctor said this, you just did it. You know, so he had no confidence coming out. Because after a while he was on leave. You know how you get a furlough or something. He had weekends home, and then had to come back, until he was discharged. But that's how it was. It was just on a field day.

SIGRIST:

And surely the shock treatment would have had some affect, you know? MRS.

CARVALHO:

Well, I don't think he really needed any at the time.

CARVALHO:

Not really. I wasn't that, knowing now, there was no need for the shock treatments. MRS.

CARVALHO:

I don't think he really, I think what he really needed was just someone to talk to over the experiences that he had on board ship.

CARVALHO:

My wife used to get up, I used to get up at night and talk to her for hours on end. And then, then the . . . Hold it. I'm doing something wrong. ( he laughs ) ( refers to microphone )

GLASGOW:

Just drop the wire a bit.

SIGRIST:

See, we've never done this before. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Oh, is this brand new?

SIGRIST:

We've never actually, this is the first time we've ever used this equipment out with someone like this, so you'll have to excuse us. ( he laughs )

CARVALHO:

This is good experience for all of us.

SIGRIST:

This is our first time out on the field, so to speak, in the field.

CARVALHO:

This is good.

SIGRIST:

Actually, we're going to head back. My feet are getting cold.

CARVALHO:

Whatever you say. Everybody is. ( voices garbled ) MRS.

CARVALHO:

Good thing I wore old shoes. Now, basically, this is a secure building. It won't fall down.

SIGRIST:

Now, why are there cages on the lights? Because obviously if these people were incapacitated they wouldn't be jumping up there. Why would there be cages on the lights?

CARVALHO:

Whatever they get their hands on, throw it at them. Some of these people, I mean, like I was telling the other fellow there, you know, you'd be waking in the middle of the night, people screaming. I mean, going through nightmares. Some of these guys from Bataan that were on their mark, they would really have nightmares, big nightmares.

SIGRIST:

What a frightening environment, actually, to be in. You can see why they would have to have everything so heavily guarded. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Oh, yeah, because you just didn't know.

CARVALHO:

Well, they didn't know where to put us. They really didn't know where the heck to put us. MRS.

CARVALHO:

That's true, because they weren't putting them in with bodies that were mangled and everything. These were of the mind.

SIGRIST:

It was a different kind of incapacitation. MRS.

CARVALHO:

And it was different, so for them to be with someone who's got a broken leg, or legs amputated that have their own sorrows, and to have someone with a mind that's destroyed, you know, you just don't put them together.

SIGRIST:

Were there people who were severely physically incapacitated here? MRS.

CARVALHO:

No.

SIGRIST:

No, this was strictly . . .

CARVALHO:

A couple of them that were, you know, limpers, that . . . MRS.

CARVALHO:

Well, people, I guess, that had both the mental, but I believe they were all mental, because we didn't see any broken bodies here. We found that in New Jersey at the Veteran's Hospital there, and the Lions, by us. They have all those hospitals for those that lost their limbs, but this was for the mind.

CARVALHO:

This was just what it was. It was not that big. I mean, there weren't too many of us here, I don't believe. MRS.

CARVALHO:

The ward was filled, you know.

CARVALHO:

Let me tell you, I don't know how old you are, but that man up there is going to start one that I cannot believe that any human being should go to war, no way.

SIGRIST:

Well, I'm with you. MRS.

CARVALHO:

If they were here to see what it did . . .

CARVALHO:

Take Bush and Hussein, throw them in a ring, and whoever comes out winner -- watch, Ang.

SIGRIST:

Why don't we go outside and we'll talk about the picnics, and get some sunlight. It's warmer out there, probably.

CARVALHO:

Yeah. It's a lot better for all of us. You walk in front, Ang. But it was an interesting experience. ( walking ) ( voices off mike ) The entertainment came. The room there with a stage.

FEENEY:

This certainly is the longest hallway in the entire complex. MRS.

CARVALHO:

In the entire world.

FEENEY:

In the hospital wards there everything is so broken up, no corridor is more than I'd say twenty feet.

CARVALHO:

The way these were, I would call Roman maze. You had to be in bed at a certain time, you know, and they gave you your pills, whatever, they said they would use. But the biggest recollection I had was the shock room, because that really put an imprint on me. ( everyone continues walking, MRS.. Carvalho is heard off-mike. )

FEENEY:

Do you remember perhaps consulting with a doctor in this building? This was administration. This was offices.

CARVALHO:

That's probably where it was, one of these offices.

FEENEY:

Ma'am? Do you recall being in this building at all? Because this building was, you know, for administration where there would be offices . . . ( off mike ) MRS.

CARVALHO:

Maybe, you know, it just looks so different.

CARVALHO:

( to Glasgow ) Ken, let me see this room over here. ( walking ) This is something like the office that I would come into. You'd be sitting at a desk that would have all kinds of different things. This would be about what I recall because of the sunlight coming in a lot. And most of my . . . Huh? MRS.

CARVALHO:

He had rooms for consultations. ( to her husband )

CARVALHO:

It could have been one of the offices that I it, because it was a very brightly lit room. I used to talk to them. And, you know, you'd spend maybe an hour, an hour and a half with them, talking about different things. He would never talk to you, though. He would listen to what you had to say. Typical, the doctor. MRS.

CARVALHO:

Yeah, typical.

FEENEY:

Were there any other caseworkers that would talk to you, or would it just usually be the physician?

CARVALHO:

No. Nothing, really. We never had any group therapy. It was strictly one-on-one with the doctors. And that's all I remember. But there were quite a few of us. And we would, I think he was going back and forth from here to Staten Island, and he would do work over there. But he was a good doctor, I mean, for that period of time, I guess. So, what to say. ( break in tape )

SIGRIST:

. . . through the whole interview, how did you end up here in the first place?

CARVALHO:

Well, in the Merchant Marine when I cracked up at home I, about a week before I got sick, I dove through a second story window. I . . .

SIGRIST:

Why did you do that?

CARVALHO:

Well, I had a feeling that I was on a ship and the ship was sinking, and I dove, and I woke up when I was halfway through. And my mother and father, they didn't know what to do with me because they weren't, my father was an illiterate. A very good man, though. I didn't mean that knocking them or anything. And my mother was an alcoholic, which is what I am, was. And I just cracked one day. I couldn't control.

SIGRIST:

Did you have a vision, or . . .

CARVALHO:

Excuse me?

SIGRIST:

Was it a vision? Were you hallucinating, or what?

CARVALHO:

No. It's just that I couldn't, like, if I wanted to walk, or I wanted to run. It was the main thing, was trying to run and get away from everything. And my brother said, "Well, we'd better see a doctor." So we went to see a doctor, and my folks didn't have any money, so what they did was say, "Well, let's find out from the Merchant Marine." Because I was still in the Merchant Marine, so they took me over to Staten Island, they put me in the locked, padded cell. And I told my mother and father not to do anything but that. So the doctor recommended coming over here, so I came over here.

SIGRIST:

And this area here was where you guys had picnics, yes? ( occasionally everyone walks through leaves that had fallen on the ground )

CARVALHO:

Yeah, we used to come out here, the whole gang of us having picnics, and . . .

SIGRIST:

Now, when you say the whole gang, are you talking about other people . . .

CARVALHO:

Other people coming to see their loved ones. And we were, most of the guys are. There weren't any women here, except over on the other side.

SIGRIST:

Now, were there women, there were no women patients that you know of.

CARVALHO:

I don't recall any women here, whether they were patients or whether they were . . .

SIGRIST:

Not even, you said you don't remember any women nurses.

CARVALHO:

Not even nurses. Ang? Angie? You don't remember any women nurses, do you? MRS.

CARVALHO:

No.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any women personnel at all, for instance. MRS.

CARVALHO:

To tell you the truth, no.

SIGRIST:

Secretaries for the doctors, anything like that? MRS.

CARVALHO:

I don't recall. No. I don't recall any women being around.

CARVALHO:

They won't be able to hear you from there, Ang. MRS.

CARVALHO:

I don't recall any women. I was the only woman.

SIGRIST:

You were the only woman. MRS.

CARVALHO:

No. There were, other than visitors . . .

CARVALHO:

This was the fellow I was talking to you about. ( he produces a photograph )

SIGRIST:

Oh, yeah.

CARVALHO:

Now, you can see . . .

SIGRIST:

Boy, he sure did look different.

CARVALHO:

Where the heck it is. It was all cleaned up. This was the fellow from Bataan, and Jonsey. I got a couple of other pictures.

SIGRIST:

This pergola is that right there.

CARVALHO:

Right there, yeah. So we were probably standing a little different.

SIGRIST:

Right. You were on that side.

CARVALHO:

You can see it here. (?) We were over there looking this way. See, we had the run of everything here.

SIGRIST:

And, of course, you know, in the museum is a wheelchair very similar to this one.

CARVALHO:

That would probably be one of them. I wouldn't doubt it in the least. I got a lot of other pictures in there that, uh . . .

SIGRIST:

Well, we'll go . . .

CARVALHO:

Why don't we get out of this cold area.

SIGRIST:

Why don't we go over to the other building, because your friends are going to be meeting you in a little while. ( break in tape )

DE PALO:

You can see where they regulated the amount of electric current that someone would receive on here. Was that on the floor below?

CARVALHO:

No. The regulation was they had volt and amp meters. I don't know what they were, but they had the meters right on the machine where you were standing, or laying.

DE PALO:

Did that operate on a separate battery, or did that come . . .

CARVALHO:

No, no. That was house current. They really gave you a good jolt there. It was like an electric chair. It was the same thing as an electric chair except it was, you know, that much lighter. But it could bring up the voltage on it, or amperage, whatever they were giving you. But when you walked in, the doctor was there, and first thing they would do was rub the salt on your head for conductivity, I guess, or whatever you wanted to call it. And then you laid there, and, you know, you were shaking like a leaf before you even get hit. And then it hits you and you're out. I mean, you're out like a light as soon as it touches you. But I don't know how much they gave you, or what the regulation was on it. Whatever the doctor recommended, I guess. I'm not sure, there had to be a doctor there, though. I'm almost sure there was a specialist.

DE PALO:

Does this look like a sort of movable unit, or was this something . . .

CARVALHO:

Yeah, yeah, it's portable.

DE PALO:

It wasn't built into the wall?

CARVALHO:

No, no, no. It wasn't that big a unit. It was actually some sort of a gauge of some kind.

DE PALO:

I see. Okay, thank you. ( break in tape )

CARVALHO:

Man, children, you know, you really had a good. Like I said, I would do my whole life over again. And the best thing I can do is give my children my life. If they would have it half as good as I had it. ( voices off mike ) ( break in tape ) Fooled around, mostly travelled. Travelled back and forth to Florida. Hey, feel this heat! ( they emerge from the buildings into the Main Building ) MRS.

CARVALHO:

Feel this heat.

CARVALHO:

Just the pictures that I had.

SIGRIST:

Yeah, I'm very interested in seeing those.

CARVALHO:

Well, let me see what I got here. These are mostly, these my wife did for the, when I was overseas. Let me see if I can get the hospital.

SIGRIST:

Oh, yes. There are the buildings.

CARVALHO:

We can see from here, this is where we were.

SIGRIST:

Now, let's see. Which one? You're in the back.

CARVALHO:

Yeah. This is me.

SIGRIST:

That's you.

CARVALHO:

That's Angie, my wife. This is Mike Sardone. He was the one on the Bataan. And that was my best man in the Marines, and that was my mother. My dad.

SIGRIST:

Yes. This is the pergola down in the . . .

CARVALHO:

You can't see really too much, but that's the only picture. My brother may have more. I'd like to get some from him if he has one, because he came over to visit me.

SIGRIST:

It's great that you have them.

CARVALHO:

Some memories.

SIGRIST:

The old water tower, you can see in the background, which is gone now. It's a different water tower.

CARVALHO:

Yeah. I don't think there's any more pictures of that, of the hospital. It's just of my boats. I grew up. That was my gas station. Thirty years.

SIGRIST:

Really. Texaco.

CARVALHO:

Yeah. Kind of plowing we used to do. That was my baby, right there. But now I fly.

SIGRIST:

And may I see the little, the snapshots again, please. ( Sigrist asks Feeney if he can photograph the snapshots ) Let's see if we can get a shot of you holding the photograph. That's where you're going tonight to?

CARVALHO:

Yeah. That's the shindig they put on. I don't know why they do it. It's like their Fourth of July. But the ambassador will be there. And this guy here, believe it or not, he's a delegate for Saudi Arabia.

SIGRIST:

He's just one of the guys there.

CARVALHO:

Well, see, what Joe does is he takes the young people from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and brings them over here for college. And he's very, this man here is very interested in his country. He's a really beautiful man.

SIGRIST:

Well, I want to say to you, I want to thank you very much for coming out here and giving us the tour of Island Three and telling us a lot of stuff that we don't, we really know very little about what went on over there.

CARVALHO:

Well, the only thing I can tell you is just what I remember, recall of what went on. But there must be so much other history behind that than just my little segment of five-and-a-half months.

SIGRIST:

Well, and there may be other people that we just have to find that, you know, could help fill in all the gaps.

CARVALHO:

Well, I don't know how you would advertise for something like that. Maybe a little short ad. Why don't you call up the Times and ask them if they can donate some time?

SIGRIST:

Do an ad or something like that, sure.

CARVALHO:

Or get a hold of Donald Trump and ask him to donate some of his time on television.

SIGRIST:

Well, anyway, I want to officially thank you very much for coming out here.

CARVALHO:

I appreciate it.

SIGRIST:

If you ever come out again for a tour.

CARVALHO:

If you can get a copy of that for me, I would really appreciate it, if you can.

SIGRIST:

I know we can get a copy of the cassette. END OF TAPE