TSELOS:

This is George Tselos, supervisory archivist, at the Statue of Liberty National Monument, Ellis Island Immigration Museum. This is Monday, April 28 th , 2003. And I'm here with Edith Lucking Horst, who was an immigrant from Germany, passing through Ellis Island in October, 1928. And we're going to be discussing her recollections of her early life in Germany, and her memories of immigration to the United States and growing up with her family in the United States. Miss Horst, I'd like to welcome you here to Ellis Island. And I'm very pleased that you and your family got in touch with us in order to arrange for this interview. What I'd like you to do first is to tell me about your early life, when you were born, what you recall about your family and your life in Germany prior to coming to this country, and then what you recall about coming here and passing through Ellis Island.

HORST:

Well, I was born 12-31-23 and was approximately five years old when we came through Ellis Island. The — as I recall, the crossing was rather hectic. My mother was ill the whole time and my sister and I were kind of on our own. And they had put us in a — three — three of us shared a — a room, which made it nice at the time, I guess, for the ship accommodations there. And they kept giving us brown bread that we would eat, hoping that we would not get sick, you know, like the dark, dark rye bread, or whatever. White — white bread, you called — weissbrot [PH] in German. And it evidently worked. But my sister and I — she's four years older. She was nine at the time — and pretty much on our own, fending for ourself on this big, big ship. But I recall coming into the harbor here and seeing the statue, and everybody ran on deck. And they had announced that the — the Statue of Liberty and we were — we had arrived at the new country that was, you know, supposed to be the — the land of opportunity and freedom for all of us. And everyone ran on deck and they rang bells and — and then also there was a blimp that flew over the ship at the time. And whether that was a greeting coming in or what, we don't recall. Recalling coming through the island and you were rather herded like cattle, is as much as I can describe at the — the lines that you had constantly, you know. And you were examined and, fortunately, my mother was well enough to get through the examiners. And actually, this is where they changed our name, transposed it, because in — in Germany, it was L-U-E-C-K-I-N-G. And here it was L-U-C-K-I-N-G, is how it was — you know, how I've gone through my life with that spelling. And that's how — you know, I guess they did that to a lot of them. They — there was a misunderstanding of how you were spelling your name or whatever. So [chuckles] —

TSELOS:

Do you recall very much about your life with your family in the town in Germany where you came from before you embarked to come to the United States?

HORST:

I don't recall too much. I remember my parents — in Germany, the homes are in little clusters and the fields — you — you go out to the fields to work everyday, which are quite far away from the little village. And I recall that my parents would go everyday and we'd rather be left — and work in the — the fields. And my father —

TSELOS:

Was your dad a farmer or — or —

HORST:

No, this was some — just what they did as far as their — what would you call that — livelihood or just at —

MR. HORST:

Your dad was an engineer.

HORST:

My father was an engineer.

MR. HORST:

A railroad engineer.

HORST:

A railroad engineer —

TSELOS:

Oh.

HORST:

— at the time. I recall that.

MR. HORST:

And then you got sick and had to go into an asylum.

HORST:

I got sick. I was sick when I was about three years old and they put me in what they called a — sanitariums at that time. Certain type of hospitals. And I recall that. And I didn't really care to stay there by myself so they had my sister go, stay with me. And while there, I had gotten scarlet fever and then put in isolation. So there was approximately a whole year that I was ill when I was three years old. Evidently recovered well enough to make the trip when I got [chuckles] — finally turned five, you know.

TSELOS:

Did your parents ever discuss with you and your sister why they decided to move to the United States?

HORST:

Yes, that was with the — the change of money and the total economy and the freedoms they didn't have. And there was the feeling that America was the land of opportunity and we would have freedom, and your money would not change in the middle of the night and the banks close and everything happening like that.

MR. HORST:

I remember your dad mentioned that when he got paid, then they would go out and by something, because the next day it was — the money was going to be worth less. And inflation was just skyrocketing.

TSELOS:

That's right.

MR. HORST:

And he — and that's why he gave up such a good job to come —

HORST:

To come here —

MR. HORST:

— to come here.

HORST:

— and make that sacrifice, you know. And then he came two years ahead of time so he could save enough money to have all of us come over. And —

MR. HORST:

Because y — your Uncle Paul was here already.

HORST:

We had —

MR. HORST:

A relative that sponsored him —

HORST:

Coming over.

MR. HORST:

— to — to come over.

HORST:

Right. My uncle, which was my mother's brother, and living in Cleveland, Ohio and —

TSELOS:

Did your father meet your mother and your sister and yourself here at Ellis or —

HORST:

Yeah.

TSELOS:

— he sent you a ticket to go to Cleveland?

HORST:

No, he — he met us here.

TSELOS:

I see.

HORST:

Uh-huh. So then I think we must have taken the train, I believe, to Cleveland. I'm assuming that's how we went.

TSELOS:

What — was — did your father continue working in a rail — some sort of railroad job when he got to the United States?

HORST:

I don't think so. [chuckles] I think jobs were awfully difficult to find at that time. And I really can't tell you what he did the two years that he was here, but accumulated enough money that — to send that for — you know, send for us. He worked in a factory. He was able to get factory work the first year that we were here. And then he was injured. His back was injured.

MR. HORST:

He worked in a steel mill.

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

HORST:

And then he — he was injured and laid up an entire year. And in th — that time, my mother had to go to work. And she worked for one of the major department stores in Cleveland as a — I guess a charwoman or whatever. It made it extremely difficult because of the language. They didn't speak a word of English. And my mother picked it up much quicker than my father did. And at the time that we came over, you were heading into the Depression in this country, [chuckles] which made it rather bad also financially.

MR. HORST:

Her dad got hurt in 1929 and that was disaster.

HORST:

That the —

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

HORST:

He was laid up a year with all these back problems. And consequently, they — we had trouble with housing. And the Lutheran church was very instrumental in helping us. I mean, we were very involved with church people at the time, because they evidently took very good care of, you know, taking care of their own. And we moved a lot, those days, because of the — the financial situation. I can't recall too many of those early years. They were not all that pleasant and it was —

TSELOS:

Did you remain in the Cleveland, Ohio area?

HORST:

Yes, we stayed in that area the entire time, have lived there and we're still there. [laughs]

TSELOS:

Yeah.

HORST:

You know.

TSELOS:

What do you remember about going to school, going to — during that era?

HORST:

Well, I had a hard time in school. [laughs] Actually, coming here in October, I had to go to school immediately and — which was kindergarten. And I — I say — this is where my family would laugh. And they don't dare be around because they would laugh at this, but I flunked kindergarten [chuckles] because of the language barrier. I could not speak. And, you know, we weren't prepared for the — the different language. So I flunked kindergarten and from — after I got past that [chuckles] I went to a parochial school, some of the —

TSELOS:

A Lutheran parochial school.

HORST:

A Lutheran school, yes.

MR. HORST:

Which your — Willie [PH] had learned enough English in Germany. They — that was mandatory in school in Germany, that she could pass the grade that she was in.

TSELOS:

That was your older sister.

MR. HORST:

Yes.

HORST:

Right. She was in the fourth grade in Germany, had gone that far. And then when we came — came over here, she was able to adjust quite well, you know. And my parents, both of them actually only had an eighth grade education in Germany. I guess that's — seems to be what that period of time, you know, that they went through the eighth grade. And from there on, you went into the apprentice program, whatever you were going to do.

TSELOS:

So that your father got his engineering experience —

HORST:

Right.

TSELOS:

— through the apprentice program.

HORST:

Right, right.

TSELOS:

What do you recall about — as you — about your experiences in school and in your neighborhood and so on as you got older and you began to learn English?

HORST:

Oh, gosh, that's hard to recall a lot of those things. Can't really —

TSELOS:

You mentioned that your family had — was very much involved with the Lutheran church.

HORST:

Uh-hmm.

TSELOS:

And I gather that the church probably, through the period of Depression, attempted to — from what you said, attempted to assist people and probably ran — you know, provided social — encouraged social activities and so on in order to try to keep families together.

HORST:

That type of thing, yes. I don't recall too much of that at the time. I don't know whether that was a very happy time in my life or not, because of the — being poor, not having any — any friends as such, and both my parents working. It made it rather difficult. We had a lot of chores to do and had to get jobs very — you know, very young age. You worked in school and you — you worked for a teacher when you were in the second grade or third grade or whatever to bring in extra money. And you always had a small garden to tend to. So I would say my sister and I had a — a lot of chores —

MR. HORST:

Wa —

HORST:

— that we always took care of.

MR. HORST:

Wasn't your —

HORST:

You know.

MR. HORST:

Was it your mother that worked for the Rockefellers as a domestic? Or was that Willie? I thought one of them worked —

HORST:

No, it was Aunt Louise.

MR. HORST:

Oh, that was Aunt Louise. Oh, I see.

HORST:

Yeah, that worked for Rockefeller.

MR. HORST:

Okay.

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

HORST:

Yes. But then my sister also was farmed out as a domestic when she turned about 16. And she was still in high school at that time, which actually was very hard also as far as, you know, grades went and your education. So life was very, very hard and it affected my mother most — most — much more so than my father, I think, because she had to work, which she was not doing in Europe, and could not be a full time mother, as such, which was kind of what they were geared to do. And she ended up working for a doctor who then in turn would take care of our health needs.

TSELOS:

I see.

HORST:

So it was kind of the — the old-fashioned barter system or whatever you want to call it. And I think, consequently, that made for a rather unhappy situation as far as she was concerned with having to do all of this. And she was very frail woman, not strong, and missed her family, which I think sometimes is a — a woman's thing.

TSELOS:

Uh-hmm.

HORST:

Missed her family intensely, really, because she just had a brother over here. And they both came from a large family, yeah.

TSELOS:

I see.

MR. HORST:

[unclear] Willie.

HORST:

Yeah.

TSELOS:

So you and your sister — did you eventually graduate from the parochial school?

HORST:

We graduated from a regular public school —

TSELOS:

Oh, okay.

HORST:

— then because we did a lot of moving around when we were young. We moved from the east side to the west side and back and forth, whatever, because of the housing situation. And until 1940 or 1938 — I think that's when my father built his own home out in the east side of Cleveland. And up until then, we moved around a lot. At the time, through the Depression, you had built the — which was very similar to during the war, where you took a larger home and divided it into small apartments-like. And we did a lot of that. And my father — you would — he was a very determined person where you had to own something. And he would try and own these places and it just — well, he went bankrupt. [chuckles]

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

HORST:

A number of times.

MR. HORST:

He'd lose them on — they'd repossess them.

HORST:

He'd lose — right. And, you know, it just didn't work that way so we moved a lot.

TSELOS:

But I gather he must have been a — he must have been a very, what they say, handy person if he was able to build houses —

HORST:

He was.

TSELOS:

— and do construction work on his own.

HORST:

Yes, very handy. And through the war, which was, you know —

MR. HORST:

Very strong.

HORST:

Yeah. Then he scrounged around and was able to find the materials to build his own home, which was what? 1940, I guess —

MR. HORST:

1941.

HORST:

[unclear] built the house out on the east side, and probably had built the house in Europe and also there, you know, the government had taken part of that and whatever. So we lost money there. So that was [chuckles] the story of our houses.

TSELOS:

You had mentioned that — how much your mother missed her family back in Germany. Did your parents keep up in terms of letters —

HORST:

Oh, yes.

TSELOS:

— whatever, with the family —

HORST:

Right, with the family.

TSELOS:

— and both sides of the family in Germany?

HORST:

Exactly. Right. They were writing back and forth an awful lot. Right.

TSELOS:

It must have — the course of World War II must have worried them tremendously, I would think. You know, with Germany being involved in the war.

HORST:

It did. Yes, it did. And it was not a happy time, you know, being — what was happening to their family over there and that — that type of situation.

TSELOS:

Was there any — do you recall any hostility on the part of your neighbors or any people that you worked on and so on because you were a German during this period?

HORST:

Yes, really. When I graduated, I could not find a job, because I graduated in '42 and I was an enemy alien at that time. I did not become a citizen under my father. When — if you — that period, if you were 14, you had to wait until you were 21. You had to do your own processing.

TSELOS:

Ah.

HORST:

Immigration.

TSELOS:

Oh, oh.

MR. HORST:

When her father and mother were — finally became citizens, she was not covered anymore for the —

HORST:

Citizenship.

MR. HORST:

— citizenship.

HORST:

Right, right.

MR. HORST:

So she was an enemy alien.

HORST:

And you had to register. I had to register, you know, every year as an enemy alien. And you carried an I.D. with you. And I could not get a job because of being an enemy alien. And finally, I — I was able to get one in a department store because that was not related to the war. And then I eventually got a job at Greyhound, which they moved troops. The buses would move troops but it did not, you know, affect the —

TSELOS:

Wasn't considered a secure [unclear].

HORST:

Yeah, it wasn't considered a security-type measure.

TSELOS:

Yeah.

HORST:

So it — it was fine then [unclear]. Till then, we had a hard time.

TSELOS:

When were you finally able to obtain citizenship?

HORST:

When I married George. [laughs]

MR. HORST:

See, we were married in 1948.

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

And then at that time, because I was an ex-GI, your wives became citizens, and I think it was two years.

TSELOS:

Oh.

MR. HORST:

So she — as soon as we got — as soon as we were married, then we applied — he applied as a wife of a GI. And we got our —

HORST:

I got my citizenship papers.

MR. HORST:

— my citizenship papers.

HORST:

Right, uh-hmm.

MR. HORST:

You know.

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

Shortly after that.

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

So that was — it was — it — aside to that, it was interesting. In 1949, we decided we were going to go on a vacation. We wanted to go to Montreal and we had to write to the State Department for a visa to get, you know, permission to get — or Immigration [unclear] to get back into the United States. And we wanted to go into Canada so we went by way of — of Peace Bridge. And Canada wouldn't let us in because she was an enemy alien.

TSELOS:

Oh, she — that was before she got her citizenship.

MR. HORST:

She got her citizenship papers. She had her — you know, this — you know, the papers, this — you know, and so — but she had no accent. So what we did is we stayed in Niagara Falls, New York. And we walked across the bridge, the Rainbow Bridge.

HORST:

[laughs]

MR. HORST:

Immigration, "Where are you going?" "We're going to go out for dinner." "Have a good — where were you born?" I said St. Louis and she said Cleveland and they let us go. [laughter]

HORST:

So, you know. [laughs]

MR. HORST:

We went up a little bit further up and the Immigration — Canadian Immigration weren't quite as busy and they let us in. But it was — it was kind of an experience. That was —

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

— my first time running into that.

HORST:

[laughs]

TSELOS:

That's interesting. Now, from your last name, I gather you're of German descent also.

MR. HORST:

Yes. My — we — I think my ancestors all came over in, like the 1830s or 1840s. And they — and we were not sure whether they came in through Ellis Island or they came in through New Orleans or some — because they all settled in a little community just south of St. Louis, Missouri.

TSELOS:

Ellis Island did not — actually did not become an immigration station until 1892.

MR. HORST:

Oh, well they were all here.

TSELOS:

So they were [unclear].

MR. HORST:

My father was born — no, because I think my father was, like, the — you know, like, fourth generation — third or fourth generation American, you know, as far as being born here [unclear].

TSELOS:

Did your family maintain speaking German through the generations?

MR. HORST:

Up — up until myself. My father was — all of his birth records and everything like that were in German, because all the records they had in these little country towns were the church records. And so — but — and my aunt, or my grandmother, who was born, like, in 1865, she did not speak English until her daughter went to school in — you know, in — she was born in '88. So she was — by the early 1890s that my aunt learned to speak Ger — English. And then my — my mother or my grandmother learned through that. And then after my — my grandfather died in 1900, well, then she had to — to learn to speak — on my dad's side. On my mother's side, I — they're the same situation, except my mother, she didn't — they didn't speak the German to the — to the extent that my father's side did.

TSELOS:

Did you speak any German growing up?

MR. HORST:

No, no.

TSELOS:

I was going to ask you if that was any connection to how the two you met.

MR. HORST:

No.

TSELOS:

I was going to ask how you met. I wondered if it was maybe through some specifically German cultural connection?

MR. HORST:

No, we met — we met —

HORST:

No, I worked for his father.

MR. HORST:

I — she worked for my father at Greyhound and I — after I was discharged from the service in '46, I got a summertime job at — working for Greyhound as — between — as I went to college. You know, that time, GIs can — we went to school 12 months out of the year because you want to get your education. So — and that's where I met her and we — we were married after I got my degree in '48.

HORST:

Uh-hmm.

TSELOS:

Did both of you continue — did both of you work for Greyhound then?

MR. HORST:

No.

TSELOS:

Oh.

HORST:

No.

MR. HORST:

No, after —

TSELOS:

No.

MR. HORST:

After — in fact, see, because my father was — was in charge of the — in charge of the Cleveland office, vice president in charge of Cleveland Accounting Office when we — when we got engaged. There was a tremendous amount of pressure on him and on her, you know, that they used to give her a hard time about marrying the bosses' son and all. So then she left and then I —

HORST:

[laughs]

MR. HORST:

Then I — there was two Greyhound — there were two Greyhound companies in — in Cleveland. So I went to work for the other Greyhound. They didn't know all this. And then in — then, as soon as I graduated — that was only a part-time job through — to get me through college. And when I got out of college, then I completely divorced myself of — of —

HORST:

Greyhound.

MR. HORST:

— Greyhound.

TSELOS:

I see.

MR. HORST:

Not — not of my family but —

TSELOS:

Right, right. Did you continue working after marriage?

HORST:

Yes, I worked until we had our first son, which was two years later. Yeah. And then I haven't worked since. [laughs]

MR. HORST:

Outside of the house.

HORST:

Outside of the house.

MR. HORST:

You're working. Yes.

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

Keeping house is work.

HORST:

Well —

MR. HORST:

Absolutely. Raising kids and keeping house is definitely work.

HORST:

Thank you.

MR. HORST:

That was — that was —

HORST:

I did a lot of volunteer work.

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

HORST:

That's my thing.

TSELOS:

Did you remain active in the Lutheran church then?

MR. HORST:

No.

HORST:

Not really. We were married in a Methodist church and —

MR. HORST:

Married in the Methodist church.

HORST:

— right now go to a Congregational. Right, Uh-hmm.

MR. HORST:

And then when we moved to our current home four years ago —

HORST:

Right, no.

MR. HORST:

— we joined the United Church of Christ [unclear].

HORST:

My family has fairly much stayed with —

MR. HORST:

Her sister's side has stayed with the Lutheran.

HORST:

They've stayed with the Lutheran church but we haven't.

MR. HORST:

One of our family here is very active in the Meth — the other two boys there are not very — they're not active in the church at all.

TSELOS:

Now, does — do you children show any particular interest in their German heritage in terms of wanting to — well, for that matter, have the — have you gone back to the original [unclear]?

HORST:

We've gone back twice.

TSELOS:

I noticed the picture of the house that's still there.

HORST:

We've gone back twice.

MR. HORST:

We've gone back twice.

HORST:

The house is quite different —

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

HORST:

— from what — you know, when my father built that. And we have gone back twice. We were there once with our middle son, who lived in Paris at the time. He would — that was his job and he was over there two years. So he has been with us through the old homestead or whatever you want to call it — through that area. But the other boys have not been interested. So, you know, we don't pressure it. [laughs] I don't push it and pressure it.

MR. HORST:

Well, particularly, these days, it's — you know.

HORST:

You know, that —

TSELOS:

Oh, I was just — I was just inquiring.

HORST:

[unclear].

TSELOS:

I mean, my father — my father, whom I mentioned, was a Greek immigrant.

HORST:

Uh-hmm, yeah.

TSELOS:

He — once he got out of college, he — aside from his immediate family who were here —

HORST:

Uh-hmm.

TSELOS:

— his brothers and sisters, he did not involve himself very much with the Greek community. And my mother was not Greek and he did not — he talked about Greece a lot, growing up in Greece and he was interested in Greek politics.

HORST:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

TSELOS:

But he did not push me to learn Greek. What Greek I do know, I learned pretty much as an adult.

HORST:

I see.

TSELOS:

And we still have some cousins over there.

HORST:

Uh-huh.

TSELOS:

And we've been back to visit a few times. But he was rather assimilationist in his — in his outlook.

HORST:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

TSELOS:

In some ways, I'm sure as a boy, I would have resented being pushed to learn Greek. As an adult, I kind of wish he had, because I'd like to be able to speak it. [chuckles]

HORST:

Exactly. I think that's the feeling I have also. I wish I knew more of the actual background and what went on. But I think the theory that — that you were saying — you — you are really not that interested when you're really young of what went on. You figure, well, you have your life and —

MR. HORST:

Her — ver — her parents were very personal. In fact, we didn't even — you didn't even know her — their anniversary date until after we had established our wedding date. And we found out that —

HORST:

That's right.

MR. HORST:

— if we would have waited a week, we would have been married on her parents' an — you know, anniversary.

HORST:

Anniversary. Right.

MR. HORST:

And so they were very quiet and very reserved about their —

HORST:

They were very reserved and —

MR. HORST:

Same way with my parents. You know, it's just — I had one — one aunt that — she was very active in keeping all of the family history and —

HORST:

Now, that could be very similar to your father in that sense.

MR. HORST:

But they wanted to —

HORST:

They — they kept the very secret and I often wondered whether that was — they were not happy about some of their decisions or whether they were extremely happy. You really didn't know. And it bothered me as I got older. And now I'm the only one left in the family. My sister has passed away and my parents passed away a long time ago.

MR. HORST:

I — it — it's quite amazing, is that her entire family is here on Ellis Island today.

TSELOS:

Really?

MR. HORST:

Oh, every one of her —

HORST:

That's [unclear]. [laughs]

MR. HORST:

— her — we have three boys. They're all here.

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

We have one grandchild and she's here.

HORST:

Yeah, that's it.

MR. HORST:

So that's our entire blood family.

TSELOS:

Wow. [END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A] [BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE B]

MR. HORST:

So when we went over in '73 it was very interesting. We would go into — we — into a guesthouse. And she would say she left Germany in 1928. Well, this was '73 so that's what, 40 [tape off/on] —

WOMAN:

I think it's working.

TSELOS:

There we go.

WOMAN:

[unclear] doing.

TSELOS:

It's working again.

HORST:

Oh, all right. [laughs]

TSELOS:

You were mentioning about coming to the guesthouse and telling people.

MR. HORST:

Yes, and then we would — she would say that she left in 1928 and then I was a Marine. Well, they never had heard of Marines in — in Germany, you know, because — but — because they hated German war brides and they hated the Air Force. And so then after we — she'd tell them that, then you could just tell them, they became so friendly with her. And we were invited into their personal quarters. And — you know, and we — of course, at that time, the — they — we were all — you know, they were — fought for the Germans and I had fought for the Americans, but not against each other. It made for a very interesting trip.

HORST:

Trip, uh-hmm.

MR. HORST:

And — and a particularly interesting thing is, she mentioned her cousin spoke perfect King's English. And the Americans, I say, were coming in and the Germans were leaving. As the Germans came in to their town, they told her cousin to go talk to the Americans, that the Germans had left and they didn't want war, and that we — and so [unclear] went out and she told them in this perfect King's English that, you know, the Germans were gone. Well, they detained her for 24 hours because those guys had gone through the Battle of the Bulge with the Germans. They didn't — English-speaking Germans. Well, anyway, so she said, "Well, I have one — I have two uncles that live in America. They live in Cleveland." And — and she said, "One lives in Highland Heights and one lives in Parma." And some GI in — that heard her said, "Well, it must be because everybody's heard of Cleveland. But you have to be to Cleveland to hear these two small" —

HORST:

Towns.

MR. HORST:

— "towns." Which, then she became the interpreter for the —

TSELOS:

I see.

MR. HORST:

— Americans and ma — and smoothed everything out so she and — and her — her family got a lot of things that, you know, the other families —

TSELOS:

Once they trusted her.

MR. HORST:

Once — once they trust —

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

Right. But he was some GI said, "Well" —

HORST:

[unclear]

MR. HORST:

— "you know, she has to be telling the truth because" —

HORST:

[laughs]

TSELOS:

Who — who else would have heard of Parma?

MR. HORST:

Parma [laughter] but somebody from —

HORST:

Right. [laughs]

TSELOS:

Yeah, yeah.

MR. HORST:

That was just an interest — one of the interesting things on the, you know —

TSELOS:

Oh, absolutely.

HORST:

[unclear] trip.

TSELOS:

Absolutely.

HORST:

Right.

TSELOS:

Absolutely.

MR. HORST:

It was a tremendously interesting trip. We were there for four weeks and it was — we got quite an education, you know, listening to their side of it.

TSELOS:

I'll bet — I'll bet you did.

HORST:

Uh-hmm.

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

TSELOS:

I'll bet you did. Well, there's been a lot of discussion recently. There've been some books that have come out about the extent to which the German people after the war talked publicly about their experiences. And — and basically, they didn't because —

MR. HORST:

No, that's correct.

TSELOS:

There was all this enormous destruction —

MR. HORST:

Oh, yeah.

TSELOS:

— and at the same time, according to a number of these — a couple of this books that were written, they felt — they felt as though they just wanted to put it behind them —

HORST:

[unclear] behind it.

TSELOS:

— because it had been so terrible and —

HORST:

Exactly.

TSELOS:

— at the same time, they realized that in part, at least, their own government had precipitated the situation. And so —

HORST:

Right.

TSELOS:

— they just wanted to — they just wanted to forget about the whole thing —

HORST:

Forget it, uh-hmm.

TSELOS:

— despite the enormous suffering and destruction.

MR. HORST:

The Third Reich — the Third Reich was a tremendous burden for the — for the people of Germany to bear for a long time. And they wanted to get rid of it. And now, the young people of today, like our sons' ages, "That was their problem. That's not our problem. We're going from here."

HORST:

That's right. Uh-hmm.

MR. HORST:

And which, you know, be fine.

HORST:

Right.

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

TSELOS:

Yeah, but there've been — recently, there've been some — a couple of books that have talked more about what the German civilians went through —

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

TSELOS:

— during that period, especially in the cities.

MR. HORST:

Oh!

HORST:

Right, right.

TSELOS:

Quite, quite devastating.

HORST:

Yes.

MR. HORST:

Like her town. Her town was on the main railroad. There was Cologne, Dusseldorf, Hanover, Berlin. And the — the American Air Force had a name for that alley and I don't remember which it was. That was the industrial part of — you know. And they would — the bombers would go in and unload their bombs on Berlin. And as they were coming home with — they would strafe the — it was towards the end of the war, that they couldn't even go to funerals because they would get bombed or —

TSELOS:

Oh.

MR. HORST:

— or strafed or, you know — yeah, before the Americans came in. So it was a — it — it — it was tough. You know, it was food and clothing and were cold and nobody had any heat. It was a tough on them.

TSELOS:

I gather that, from you said — that your parents never had any regrets about coming to this country —

HORST:

Oh, no.

TSELOS:

— despite the difficulties that they faced.

HORST:

No, no. I don't believe they ever did.

MR. HORST:

No.

HORST:

You know.

MR. HORST:

They never —

HORST:

The hardships they had here, which, you know, occurred at the beginning — and I think a lot of that probably was due to language and the lifestyle they had over there. But I think it's difficult because they were in their 40s when they came. I think it's very difficult to make that big —

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

HORST:

— of an adjustment.

TSELOS:

I'm sure it is.

HORST:

Financially and —

TSELOS:

I'm sure it is.

HORST:

— and whatever, you know.

TSELOS:

Culturally and learning a new language —

HORST:

Right, culturally. Everything.

TSELOS:

— when you're an adult.

HORST:

Uh-hmm, right.

TSELOS:

That's certainly true.

HORST:

And I think when I reached the age close to what they would have been, I could kind of associate with them, thinking, 'I wouldn't have enjoyed it that much.' I don't know if I would pick up now and move to —

MR. HORST:

Some place you didn't know.

HORST:

— Timbuktu and didn't know anyone. It would be very difficult. And on top of that, being poor, when they couldn't provide for the family the way we were provided for in Germany, which was like middle class over there, when you're coming here and you're the bottom end of the totem pole and totally poor. And Christmas was Salvation Army coming in and, you know, it's kind of rough. And I imagine that that probably affected my parents terribly as far as Depression must have gone. It's probably getting to the time.

MR. HORST:

Yeah, we have to catch —

HORST:

Yeah.

MR. HORST:

— the 12:30 boat back.

HORST:

Yeah.

TSELOS:

Well, thank you very much for taking the time —

HORST:

[laughs]

TSELOS:

— to —

MR. HORST:

Yeah.

TSELOS:

— reminisce and describe your experiences. This interview'll be added to our oral history collection. And we'll be sending you a copy of it. And we really appreciate your — your time on this.

HORST:

Oh. Thank you so much for —

MR. HORST:

Thank you.

HORST:

— taking the time.

MR. HORST:

Yeah, taking the — it's interesting to — to hear all these things, to reminisce a lot. Brings back a lot of memories to her. First t — the first time we came here was in 19 — in the late 1980s and she was crying when she came in.

HORST:

[chuckles]

MR. HORST:

You know.

TSELOS:

Well, she — [END OF INTERVIEW]