LEVINE:

This is Janet Levine for the National Park Service. And I'm here today in East Meadow, Long Island, New York. It's October 15th, 1992. And I'm with Norbert Sturm, who came from Germany in 1921 when he was seven years of age. Well, I'm happy to get to speak with you.

STURM:

Yes.

LEVINE:

And, I think you have a little, a story that's a little variation from the usual.

STURM:

Yes. Let me first give you the little facts here. We came on the ship called, called the Noordam, spelled N-O-O-R-D-A-M, which I guess was the Holland American line. And in a rather unusual fashion that my mother who was a very – a professional type – she came a few weeks before us. And she came to, what you might say, to scout out the land. So we were four children, and we came along with my father. My father Morris. My mother's name is Gusta, G-U-S-T-A.

LEVINE:

And her maiden name? Do you remember her maiden...

STURM:

Her maiden name is Stein, S-T-E-I-N. So, my mother was always a professional type, quite a woman. She, very attractive, and she came here at the urging of a, a brother that she had living here already. And also my father had a brother living here. So we left, we left from Berlin, Germany. We lived in Berlin and we were rather, well we lived very comfortably in Berlin. We had a sleep-in maid. And I, I went to – I, I was seven years old when I came here; so at the time I was going to – a Hebrew school. And I sort of remember that at the time I was leaving I had (this was the day before I le – we left.) I had forgotten my yarmulke [skull cap], and I was sent home because of that. I had to go home and pick it up. And I remember we had a sleep-in maid who cleaned and cooked and took care of us. And my mother – before we left, she was – she would travel around Europe on business. My father helped her, but he wasn't as, quite as aggressive as she was. So that's what I can remember about Germany. Of course, Berlin at that time (this was long before Hitler) and while there were many people who – who were anti-Semitic, it wasn't the sort of thing that came along many years later. And the reason we left Germany was Germany ash – after First World War, World War One, economic conditions were bad. And my father who had – he didn't believe he should go into the German army, so he had left Germany and he had gone to Amsterdam. And he, so he – as I explained, we – we went with him. And my mother came here first. And –

LEVINE:

I'm just going to stop for a minute. (she stops the tape briefly) Okay we're resuming now.

STURM:

All right. So, that's how we left Germany, and we went to Holland,. And from there we, we took the ship – the Noordam.

LEVINE:

Could we, could we talk a little more about Germany before the leaving?

STURM:

Yeah. Yeah. Germany as best as I remember it (as I said) that we, we were a family that was fair – comfortable. I wouldn't say we were wealthy. We weren't wealthy. We were, we were comfortable. We, my father and mother ran a – a good business which was okay. Except that, as I explained, the – after World War One, the economic conditions in Germany were bad. So, when my uncles told us how great things were in America, we decided to – my parents decided to leave Germany and come to America.

LEVINE:

What, what did your mother and father do? What, what kind of business were they traveling around...

STURM:

Well, the – what they, what they did was they were in a – they sold fabric type of goods, and they had customers that were around Germany and even in other parts of Europe.

LEVINE:

And what, I want to just, what was your birth date?

STURM:

My birth date? My birth date is January 23, 1914.

LEVINE:

And...

STURM:

And I was born in Germany in a hospital. (they laugh) A lot of people that were born in a home, but I was born in a hospital.

LEVINE:

Did you have any brothers or sisters when you were born?

STURM:

Yes. I, I had an older sister.

LEVINE:

And her name –

STURM:

Her name is Toni, which is a short name for Antoinette. Our names were a little bit unusual because my older sister, her name is Antoinette, my name is Norbert, and then my younger sister, her name is Selma. (he laughs) And my brother's name, who has a name was Isidor. So there you got a combination of, hodge podge of names. (he laughs)

LEVINE:

Now did you have grandparents in, in Germany, in Berlin?

STURM:

No. My, my grandparents – see, wee, originally came from Poland. And the grandparents, they lived in Poland. And I don't have much of a memory of them. I recall that we visited them sometime. One of those small, little towns, what they call the shtetl . And that's about all I remember them. Of course, they probably died under Hitler. So –

LEVINE:

How about your mother? Can you recall any experiences with her while you were still in Germany that are the kind of thing you remember when you think about that part of your childhood?

STURM:

Well, what, what I remember is (as I explained) my – my mother, she was an attractive business woman who went around seeing different customers. I do remember ba – back during World War – the end of World War One – I can sort of recall, my father had left for Holland. I recall the police coming to the house looking for him, or maybe it was the army. I, I guess it was the police. And, of course, he wasn't there. And I say that – that, that sort of sticks in my memory. They came to the house and – but, that was it. As I say, people in those days – there was anti-Semitism, but it wasn't the type that came up under Nazism.

LEVINE:

What, do you remember either any instances of anti-Semitism in Germany at that time, or that you personally experienced?

STURM:

No, I don't. As I say, I was only seven years old, and I, I didn't go to the regular public school. I went to a Hebrew school, where I guess you – somewhat similar to what you call your Yeshiva today.

LEVINE:

What, did the, did the Jewish people mix freely? I mean, would you be playing with kids who were, who were gentiles, or, normally speaking in the neighborhood? Or would, did you have sort of sectioned off, so that most of the Jewish people were in one section and –

STURM:

Well, I, I don't remember that exactly. But strangely enough I do remember we, we did live in a Jewish section. And for – for some strange reason I remember the street we lived on which was called Grenadierstraße, which is in a Jewish neighborhood somewhat close to where the western wall was built. Somewhere in that area. And I sort of remember that. I remember, I know my mother and, my parents, they took vacations. We went to a, we went to a resort called, what was it?

WIFE:

Baden-Baden.

STURM:

Baden-Baden. (daughter laughs) And we, we lived a nice comfortable life there. It was, as much as I can remember at that age.

LEVINE:

And the decision to come to America was made just because of economic conditions...

STURM:

Because of economic conditions. As I say, ec – economic conditions at that time, in the 1920's Germany was going through probably what you would call a recession. And things were bad. And it was in the 1920's that people like Adolf Hitler got their start from the economic conditions that existed then – and which they blamed upon Jews and Communists, people like that.

LEVINE:

And, so, do you remember what you were told as a seven year old about America before you came here? Do you know, did you have any idea of America before the fact of being here?

STURM:

No, I, I don't re – I don't rea – really remember much about what I was told. I guess all I was told was that we were leaving, and pack up my things. And (he laughs) we, we took our things and we, we left. And as I say my mother had left already. So we were, we were thr – , four, four children who were going with my father – who was going to take the four of us, which is a little bit on the odd side.

LEVINE:

Well did, why was it that your mother left two weeks earlier?

STURM:

My mother left before, before. She wanted to scout out the situations, see whether we should really come. So she left a few weeks before, and she contacted my father. It was, "Yeah. Let's, let's go." And so we, we took off. We s – sold I guess whatever there was that could be sold, and we – we took off.

LEVINE:

Did you, do you remember anything that your parents brought with them from Germany?

STURM:

Brought with them from Germany? Well, in those days people brought things like a, a, a, an, what do they call those? They, they had a Jewish word for the paragon (?), which was a...

WIFE:

A down quilt. It was down.

STURM:

A down quilt. That was considered to be something precious. (he laughs) So they brought that with them, and other than –

WIFE:

Any.

STURM:

– clothing and some silverware or something like that. I don't remember anything special that we brought with us.

LEVINE:

Well, had you been a religious family when you were in Germany?

STURM:

Not necessarily. We were – we weren't what – we weren't ultra orthodox. We were a, a, a, an orthodox family following the usual Jewish traditions who – we went to the synagogue there. And, as I say, I believe we lived in a Jewish neighborhood, where in that part of the – of Berlin.

LEVINE:

And did you live in an actual house, or did you live in an apartment, or?

STURM:

I would say we, we lived in an apartment. As much, I would say we lived in an apartment at that time.

LEVINE:

Okay, well then, do you remember leaving your house and, and, and going? How did you go, and, to the, to get to the port where you embarked from?

STURM:

Well (like I say) I, I, I left. We le – we left. I, what I remember was sort of unexpected. And we got up in the morning, were told we were leaving, and we – this goes back of course so many years. It's a little hard for me to remember. And we, we took a train from Berlin to, to Rotterdam. And also what happened that I, that I remember is that my father – who carried a lot of cash on him – he was, somebody stole this money while he – that he was carrying on him. Part of it anyway. So that was another one of the unfortunate things (he laughs)...

LEVINE:

Yeah.

STURM:

...in leaving Germany. He was pickpock – , pickpocket.

LEVINE:

And when you got to Rotterdam, did you have a wait there before you got on the ship?

STURM:

No. No unusual wait.

LEVINE:

Did you, did you, were you examined, physical examinations before getting on the ship, do you remember?

STURM:

No. No. No. There were no physical examinations. This was a steam liner, and we got aboard of the – . And of the trip itself, what I sort of remember was my father would ke – kept walking us around the deck becau – to be – keep us from getting seasick. So he felt that doing a lot of walking, keep walking around the deck would prevent us from getting seasick. 'Cause naturally there – things, waves were a little rough and a lot of people were getting seasick. And my sister sort of remembers an incident on the boat. She says – my younger sister – she says that my father, she remembers my father bathed her on the ship in front of a lot of men and she was very much embarrassed by it. (he laughs)

WIFE:

She was only five years old. (she laughs)

LEVINE:

Well...

WIFE:

They went steerage.

LEVINE:

So, let's see. How would you describe, I mean, was your mother the disciplinarian in the family, and your father...

STURM:

No, no, no. My mother, my father was the disciplinarian. But my mother was more of a businesswoman than he was. He was more the old type. You know, he would go to shul [synagogue] and pray and still he was into business. And he, he was – . Show, show her the picture we have hanging here of my father.

LEVINE:

Well, maybe we could look at that after the tape.

STURM:

Okay.

LEVINE:

Because on the tape it's, nobody can see it. (she laughs)

STURM:

No, you can't see, unfortunately you can't see it on the tape. Yeah. My father was a...

WIFE:

Dandy.

STURM:

He, no, he wasn't a dandy. He was a –

WIFE:

How?

STURM:

– good looking man. This is, this is a picture, he was a sharp looking guy, but...

WIFE:

Religious.

STURM:

– more, tending more to religion at home, whereas my mother took care of the business.

LEVINE:

I see.

STURM:

That's, that's the sort of relationship it was.

LEVINE:

And, let's see. When you got to New York Harbor, do you remember the ship coming into the harbor?

STURM:

When we got to New York Harbor, like everybody else, we – we got up. We – we all were interested in seeing the Statue of Liberty, of course, which was out there. And we were amazed at the sky scrapers in New York Harbor, how tall everything was. And then we finally got to Ellis Island. Now, what I remember about Ellis Island was my – my uncle, he came aboard. I guess they – what they call like a little steam ship, people would rent – and go on the steam ship and go around the ocean liner to go ar – go around Ellis Island to look for people that they recognized. So, we, we fi – we got to – we recognized him, and that was before we got off Ellis Island. This was a little sort of a sight seeing ship, I guess. They rent it special for that purpose, to go around the ocean liner and the steam ship. And all, what I remember about it was, it was summertime. The weather, we were not accustomed to the kind of hot weather that was here in New York in July. And it was very hot. And I remember that when we got off Ellis Island, we didn't – I don't think we stayed more than couple of days there. We all found New York extremely hot and uncomfortable, and my younger sister complained bitterly about the heat in New York. And of course we, we were rather surprised to see the – them selling oranges and bananas, which we had never seen over there in Berlin or even Rotterdam. So I, I sort of remember that. And I know New York was crowded and they were – the elevator [sic] trains running overhead, making a lot of noise – the eastside. So I still remember that.

LEVINE:

Do you, do you know why you stayed at Ellis Island for a few days?

STURM:

Well, everybody had to go through Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

I mean, was, was there any problem with you're being processed, or was it just that there were so many people you, they didn't get to you?

STURM:

No. They, that was the procedure. Unless – you were well to do, you were processed aboard ship. But everybody else had to go through Ellis Island. So...

WIFE:

Those in steerage went through, through –

STURM:

Yeah.

WIFE:

– went through Ellis Isl – those in first and second class didn't.

STURM:

So we, we went through Ellis Island, which was, I, I think as far as we're concerned everything moved pretty fast. They checked our names and checked us for our – make sure that we did not have any diseases or sicknesses or lice in the hair. And you were on a line that moved fast, and we were in and out.

LEVINE:

Do you, do you remember sleeping there? Do you remember, like, the accommodations and the food and that kind of thing?

STURM:

Oh, no, not really. I, I wasn't there long enough to remember. I know it was sort of a, what you might say a barracks type of operation. You, you slept there – crowded condition, and things were a little noisy. And then you moved through, and they released you and that was it.

LEVINE:

Do you remember being struck by anything once you got to New York that, you know, was new and different, and something you'd never experienced before?

STURM:

Well –

LEVINE:

The elevated trains, I guess, would be one.

STURM:

Yeah. The elevated trains, of course, was new and different. And the crowded conditions of the eastside there, the noisiness. That was very different from what we had been accustomed to. Of course streets were rather dirty compared to Berlin, and that's about what I remember.

LEVINE:

Well now, was your, was your uncle, had you, had your father arranged that your uncle would meet you at Ellis Island?

STURM:

Yeah, yeah. As I say, my mother was here.

LEVINE:

And, and she, you met with her –

STURM:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

– she was there in New York.

STURM:

Yeah. She, and they had arranged to meet there once we got of the – got off Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

And, and, now did your uncle have an apartment in the lower eastside, or...

STURM:

My, my uncle had at that time – he had a grocery store, and he – a grocery store in the city. And then I had another uncle who also lived in New York – my, my mother's brother, and I don't remember exactly what business they were in. But they were very content, doing nicely.

LEVINE:

Now the uncle who met you was your father's brother?

STURM:

Yeah. That was my father's brother.

LEVINE:

And what was his name?

STURM:

His name was Isa – Irving.

LEVINE:

Irving.

STURM:

Irving. Irving Sturm. And he, he had a family here. He, at that time he had a grocery store.

WIFE:

No, he opened up a, a restaurant.

STURM:

Yeah, and my mother – so what we did was, shortly after that – my mother opened up a restaurant on the eastside on Rivington Street (a clock chimes), which is the heart of the eastside. And I guess that was to sor – keep monies coming in. And she cooked Jewish foods and, which was I guess for – mostly for immigrants. And –

LEVINE:

Do you remember what she cooked? I mean, do you remember the kind of things that...

STURM:

Well, she cooked matzo balls in soup, you know, that sort of thing. Typical Jewish dishes. Knedlekh [dumplings], and kugel [a firm pudding], that sort of thing. She, we opened up a restaurant there in Rivington Street on the Eastside. And...

LEVINE:

Now did your father also work in the restaurant at that point?

STURM:

My – my father at that time, what – what he did was he became what they call a customer peddler. Which was shortly after that. In other words, customer peddler – he took house wares which he took into neighborhoods into Brooklyn. And sold them – opening up accounts on a credit basis. So that he would – they – he would extend credit to them. And then they would pay him off on a monthly basis. So that's what he did. And eventually my mother closed the restaurant and she joined him into this business – in the, in this opening up accounts and selling merchandise on credit. So I remember that we – we – we – we lived in, in Williamsburg at that time. On – in a tenement house on South Second Street, which was a walk up somewhere on the third floor. Which was that time, of course – was all Jewish. Today it's a rough area, mostly Puerto Rican and black. But that time it was – that was – Wintersberg was a very large Jewish neighborhood. We lived there in a typical tenement on the third floor, walk up. This was before they had elevators. END SIDE ONE BEGIN SIDE TWO

LEVINE:

Now did you start school right away?

STURM:

Yes. I started school right away. We, we went to school right away. I was, I was seven and we – I went to, I even remember the school I went to was P. S. 19 – which was in Wintersberg. And they stood for no nonsense there. It wasn't –

WIFE:

Believe they didn't... (she laughs)

STURM:

It wasn't like they are today. And I sort of remember an incident that happened there in school. My principal of the school was giving a lecture to the school, and whatever it was, something made me laugh. And because I laughed, the principal put me back a class.

WIFE:

Imagine that? Just for laughing. (they laugh)

STURM:

That, and it took me all of a year to catch up on it. So, things were, school was very strict. And, of course, I remember that we were – my, my parents didn't want us to speak either Yiddish or German. We were to speak English. And that was traditional among all Jewish families. And, so we were, at an early age we were learning English as they taught us in school. And that's what the, the par – , my parents wanted to – us to learn. And even my parents, they spoke Yiddish, and gradually they started speaking English.

LEVINE:

Were, were there a lot of immigrant children in your, in your class at school?

STURM:

Oh, yes. Yeah. The class, the class was probably ninety percent immigrant children.

LEVINE:

Oh. So you were all learning English together.

STURM:

And, yeah. Yeah, they were all immigrant children. And school was very strict, no nonsense. You did, you didn't conform in any way, the teacher would grab you by your hair and –

WIFE:

It's true.

STURM:

– whirl you around, hit you with a ruler on your palms. You had to put your palms out. She'd whack it with a ruler. It was a no nonsense school. You didn't behave, you – you got corporal punishment. She'd whack you with something. And your – your parents wanted to come up and complain, they –

WIFE:

They didn't complain, the tea...

STURM:

– they were, they didn't complain. They were sum...

WIFE:

The teacher was always right.

STURM:

They were summons [sic] – this school. This, this was the way, way it was.

LEVINE:

So then you stayed in school, did your mother and father become citizens?

WIFE:

Oh, yes.

STURM:

Oh, yes. Yeah. My mother and father, they became citizens. They applied for citizenship right away. And, as I say, they started, they went into this business which they developed.

WIFE:

Customer peddling, it was called. Like holy water. (laughs) My baby hadn't to – to take the father's store.

STURM:

And they extended, they developed, they called on these accounts. And pretty soon they bought a car. I remember my – my father had one of the first early Fords, 'Cause I guess you needed a car to get around. (he laughs) So, I remember he had one, an early Ford that we drove around with. And I guess he must have used that to get around because his customers were all mostly in Queens. Sections like Maspeth and Ridgewood, Queens. In those sections. Those are the – the these were mostly Italian, Polish, German, those kind of people that he sold to.

LEVINE:

So, would they travel together, your mother and father to go to these accounts?

STURM:

Yeah, usually. Yeah, usually together, unless she of course had to stay home to take care of the four of us. After all we were four – four children. And, but when she wasn't busy taking care of us she would help him in this business.

LEVINE:

And then, did you ever develop to be in the same business? I mean, did you work into that business as well?

STURM:

No.

LEVINE:

No.

STURM:

No. We, I went to school. And I went from – after I graduated from P.S. 19, I went to Eastern District High School, which is in Williamsburg. Eastern District High School today is no more, the building itself is now a Yeshiva for girls. But Eastern District High School has now been moved. They're now on – on Grant Street and Bushwick Avenue in a new building, where they have problems with the kind of neighborhood it is.

WIFE:

Then from there he went to City College.

STURM:

And from –

WIFE:

To the army. (she laughs)

STURM:

Yeah. From there, from when I graduated high school, I...

WIFE:

Or Brooklyn College, I think...

STURM:

Yeah. I, I was a pretty good student. And so I went to Brooklyn College. Which, based on my marks, it didn't cost me anything to get in – to – in Brooklyn College. I had to, my marks were good enough to get me in. And that's where I graduated – Brooklyn College, which at that time was downtown Brooklyn. And so, and then of course, eventually I wound up going into the army when World War Two broke out. At that time, I was – I was going to Brooklyn College. Because of my German background I was an excellent student in German, and I was up for a, an award. The school gave a – a school award to the best student in the class. I would have gotten that award, but those were the years that Hitler became powerful. And with that, I le – . With the spread of Nazism, I lost all interested – interest in the German language and I dropped it. So that was the end of that.

LEVINE:

So did you go to Europe, then, in the army?

STURM:

Yes. I went into the army. And – and I – I went to, first I went to North Africa. I was in the med – medical corps. I was in charge of the pharmacy. They – they set up a general hospital. And one day the FBI were checking out people with German background, so they called – called me in (he laughs). And they asked me if I, how I felt about going back to Germany. So I said, I – I – I had no – by all means, I wouldn't mind go – going back to Germany. Even though I had relatives still in Germany. But of course –

WIFE:

He went from North Africa to Italy. (a doorbell rings)

STURM:

Yeah. I went from North Africa to Italy, and that's where we set up a general hospital in Italy. Germany – so Germany with the, at that time – Hitler, of course, became all powerful. And we went, we were at war with Germany. And I, as far as I know, all my relatives who were there died under Nazism. So it's a good thing I came here. Otherwise I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.

LEVINE:

What are you proudest of in – you've accomplished in your life?

STURM:

What do I?

LEVINE:

What are you most proud of?

STURM:

Well I'm most proud of, I got a nice family. And I have, I have three children, and...

WIFE:

Three married children.

STURM:

Three married children and nine grandchildren. And...

LEVINE:

What, how did you meet your wife?

STURM:

How did my – meet my wife? (he laughs)

LEVINE:

They said that story? (they all laugh)

STURM:

Well that's an interesting story. The way I met...

WIFE:

I went out with his friend.

STURM:

The way I...

WIFE:

Blind date. (she laughs)

STURM:

The way I met my wife, she was on a date with somebody else, and I was on a date with somebody else. And I found her. We were, we were ice, we went ice skating.

WIFE:

At Bear Mountains.

STURM:

At Bear Mountains. And so, what I did was I – I took my, the date I was – home first, and then I took my wife (who was going to become my wife) – I took her home. And –

WIFE:

Always said 'don't trust the girls' you know.

LEVINE:

Get rid of the other one first. (they laugh)

STURM:

That's the way I met –

WIFE:

That wasn't quite –

STURM:

That's the way I met my wife.

LEVINE:

And what is your wife's name, maiden name?

STURM:

My wife's na – her name is Florence –

WIFE:

Riemer. R-I-E- –

STURM:

And her – her maid, her maiden is Riemer R-I-E-M-E-R.

LEVINE:

And your children's names?

STURM:

Children's name. My oldest –

WIFE:

Robert Martin.

STURM:

His name is Robert. And then I have a second one. Her name –

WIFE:

Carolyn.

STURM:

– is Carolyn. And the third one, his name is Craig. And my, my oldest, he lives today in Philadelphia. My daughter is a school teacher here, not far from us here on North Bellmore on Long Island. And my youngest, he – he's married. And he and his family live in Salt Lake City, Utah, which is –

WIFE:

Which we visit every year, (they laugh) and get to see the country. From Utah we go up and down the Rockies to the coast and so forth. Alaska. We've managed to travel so much.

STURM:

Strangely, strangely enough we've been on many vacations. And strangely enough, I started to say, was on one our vacations my wife and I did get back to Germany.

LEVINE:

Oh.

STURM:

Yeah. We were on a trip from – that started in Austria, and, and took us from Austria into Germany, and to –

WIFE:

Switzerland, Italy.

STURM:

– parts of France. Switzerland. And then we wound up in Amsterdam. Of course, this was about –

WIFE:

Ten years ago.

STURM:

Oh, about eight years ago – something like that. So, we, I never did go back to Berlin. I'd be curious to go back to see what Berlin is like today. And, but we did go through Germany –

WIFE:

We took the –

STURM:

– Hei – , Heidelberg, and –

WIFE:

Cologne.

STURM:

Pa – pa – Cologne, pa – those parts of Germany.

LEVINE:

Were, were your mother and father happy that they had made the decision to come? Did they ever regret it?

STURM:

Yeah. Yeah. They were, they were happy. They were happy because, as I say, that in the '20's there was a lot – a lot of anti-Semitism in Germany – which wasn't expressed the way it was in later years. But by the 1930's – ten years later – with the start of Hitlerism, then of course things really became virulent and it's a good thing we came here.

LEVINE:

Well, do you think having come here as an immigrant, you were seven years old. But do you think that has influenced your life in some way? Has it had an effect, the fact that you started out someplace else and came here and started a new life for you and your family?

STURM:

Well, I would say it has. Because I did go from one completely different background to a completely new background, and with the different challenges it represented. But, as I say, we quickly became Americans. We...

WIFE:

Assimilated. (she laughs)

STURM:

We – we assimilated. And, even though we lived in among – on the eastside – we more, we didn't live much on the eastside. We lived in Wintersberg which at that time was a poor, heavily Jewish neighborhood. And we assimilated, And eventually, my parents moved to Flatbush – which was a better neighborhood. And that's where we lived, in Flatbush, Brooklyn.

LEVINE:

Well, is there anything else you can think of that you'd like to mention before we close?

STURM:

Well, I (he pauses) I can't think of anything else. As I say, I would like sometime to go back to Berlin. And go back. Maybe I could – I'd like to look up the street that I lived on, and see what that place is like today. I'm curious about that. And I'm sorry that on the trip out that we did take, we were on a tour, I didn't have that opportunity to get back to Berlin. It, I'd like to see what it's like today. That's, that's about it.

LEVINE:

Okay. Well, thank you very much. It was a very interesting story...

STURM:

Okay.

LEVINE:

...and thank you. And I think we can close here. I've been talking with Norbert Sturm, who came from Germany in 1921 when he was seven. And this is Janet Levine signing off. END OF THE INTERVIEW