SIGRIST:

This is Paul Sigrist for the National Park Service. Today is January 30, 1993. I'm here at the Masonic Home in Utica, New York, in central New York state with Kyffin Williams, and that's spelled K-Y-F-F-I-N. Mr. Williams came from Wales in 1914 when he was nineteen years old. Good evening, Mr. Williams.

WILLIAMS:

Good evening.

SIGRIST:

Can we start by you pronouncing your name for me?

WILLIAMS:

Kyffin Williams (Mr. Williams slowly pronounces his name)

SIGRIST:

And what is your date of birth, sir?

WILLIAMS:

1894.

SIGRIST:

And what is the day and the month?

WILLIAMS:

October, October the 3rd.

SIGRIST:

Mr. Williams, where in Wales did you come from?

WILLIAMS:

Colwyn Bay.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell that for me please?

WILLIAMS:

C-O-L-W-Y-N B-A-Y.

SIGRIST:

Where in Wales is that?

WILLIAMS:

It's on the shores of the Irish Sea, in North Wales.

SIGRIST:

Is this a large town or a small town?

WILLIAMS:

It's a small, it's a summer resort. It's a large town with thousands of visitors in the summer time.

SIGRIST:

So the population of the town gets bigger in the summer.

WILLIAMS:

It gets about three times as big.

SIGRIST:

How big is it usually, before the tourists come?

WILLIAMS:

Well, I couldn't remember the numbers, no, but I would say about six or seven thousand people.

SIGRIST:

And then it would triple in size.

WILLIAMS:

In time there were a good many hotels there that were up-to-date at that time. And they were occupied. (Welsh) Hotel, Colwyn Bay Hotel, Marine Hotel, and so forth.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe for me what the town looked like?

WILLIAMS:

Well, it's all very built very close together, right on the beach of the Irish sea. On the bay, the Irish Sea. And so, that's what makes it attractive with the sun at the shore, at the beach. (Sigrist agrees) Sunday beach.

SIGRIST:

Who were the people that came to the resort? Where did they come from?

WILLIAMS:

From all kinds, Manchester, Birmingham, Sheffield, the manufacturing towns.

SIGRIST:

But all English people.

WILLIAMS:

Yes they were all English people.

SIGRIST:

And you were born in this town?

WILLIAMS:

I was born in Colwyn Bay.

SIGRIST:

Were you born at a hospital or in the house?

WILLIAMS:

I suppose in the house. In those days there was no hospital. There was no hospital.

SIGRIST:

That's right. What was your dad's name?

WILLIAMS:

His name was William Williams.

SIGRIST:

And what did he do for a living?

WILLIAMS:

He was a miner. He was a miner.

SIGRIST:

So there was a quarry near by?

WILLIAMS:

There was. There was a large quarry. And there was a terrible storm came along and they went, like the rest of them, he went to work, and a big large fall came right from the peak of the quarry and buried them, killed them, killed them.

SIGRIST:

How old was he when that happened?

WILLIAMS:

I don't remember. I was only a year old myself. I was a year old, I don't know, I don't remember. I was taken to my grandfather and grandmother for a living. They kept me. They brought me up.

SIGRIST:

What did your mother do when your father died?

WILLIAMS:

Well, she went to work.

SIGRIST:

What did she do?

WILLIAMS:

Housework. Maid, a maid in a house.

SIGRIST:

What was her name?

WILLIAMS:

Hannah Williams.

SIGRIST:

What was her maiden name. Her name before she was married.

WILLIAMS:

Oh, Jones, Hannah Jones.

SIGRIST:

How do you spell that?

WILLIAMS:

H-A-N-N-A-H Jones.

SIGRIST:

Hannah Jones, and then when she married your dad she became Hannah Williams.

WILLIAMS:

Williams.

SIGRIST:

Was she from that town?

WILLIAMS:

No, she was from a mining town on the other side. About a couple of miles from there. That's were she was. And...

SIGRIST:

Were her family miners?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yeah, except my grandfather. He was a gardener, a gardener.

SIGRIST:

That would be your mother's father.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Where was he a gardener?

WILLIAMS:

Well, I couldn't tell you exactly, because they didn't have no name. They did have a private name but I don't remember where, like the Range Mansion, Range Mansion, that mansion covered everyone of them, that's how the place was built. Mansions here, mansions there.

SIGRIST:

So there were wealthy people also who lived...

WILLIAMS:

Oh yeah, there was retired people, who lived all over England in there, and they came there to retire. So because it was a nice beach, ships came in and Ireland was over there, Scotland was over there, England was over here, and Wales was over here. (he gestures)

SIGRIST:

Was there a huge difference between the very wealthy and the poor people in town.

WILLIAMS:

Plenty, plenty of difference.

SIGRIST:

Can you talk a little bit about that?

WILLIAMS:

Well, wealthy was wealthy, the rich was rich, the rich was rich, the poor was poor.

SIGRIST:

Were all the poor people, the people who were in the mines, who worked in the mines?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, they were working for very, very, low wages, probably about five dollars a week. That would be about the best that they could do.

SIGRIST:

Can you talk a little bit about what it meant to be a miner? What did the miners have to do? What was there work like?

WILLIAMS:

They, dig this side of the building. They would have to dig over there right up across and blast that step down, that wide space right down to the bottom, slice it up, blast it up, with dynamite and there was a gang of people filling trucks and taking it to the mill to be crushed. And there were ships coming from all parts of England and other countries to pick up this stone. They were building stones.

SIGRIST:

What kind of stone is it?

WILLIAMS:

Limestone, yeah, all limestone.

SIGRIST:

So this was a big operation.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, a great big pit. That was the only operation that was going on.

SIGRIST:

This was dangerous work, obviously. What were some of the other hazards, what were some of the other things that might happen to you if you were a miner?

WILLIAMS:

Well, I couldn't tell you, I couldn't tell you, only that they were always afraid of those loose stones up there. They would be washed down and they would always keep an eye on it, but they were too late this time when my father was killed. But, there was no hospital and so there was no pension, nothing of the kind. And so my mama had to go and take care of herself and to take care of me with my father and mother.

SIGRIST:

So the grandparents that you went to, were they your father's parents or your mother's?

WILLIAMS:

My mama's parents, Jones.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember their first names.

WILLIAMS:

Fredrick Jones.

SIGRIST:

That was your grandfather?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, and Martha, M-A-R-T-H-A, Martha Jones.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe for me what they were like as people, your mother's parents?

WILLIAMS:

They were common, ordinary, hard-working people. Wealth was not on their mind. Wealth was out of their reach. If they could make a living that is about all they could expect for the rest of their life.

SIGRIST:

Now was this your grandfather who was a gardener?

WILLIAMS:

No, he was John Williams.

SIGRIST:

That was your father's father. I see. (Sigrist repeats the question) What did you grandfather on your mother's side do for a living?

WILLIAMS:

A farmer.

SIGRIST:

A farmer. Did they live on a farm?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe the farm for me?

WILLIAMS:

Well, my father like the rest of them, was renting the farm. He didn't own one inch of it. Like all the other farms. At one time, ah, say around the tenth century, and down through there, the hierarchies, the people with money, they were granted the farms. They were granted by the royal family. They were granted it. Take it and you collect the rent and you have the tenants. If they could just make a living on working the farm, they would be lucky.

SIGRIST:

So your grandparents rented this land. What did they grow on it?

WILLIAMS:

Everything, kind of thing, well, cows, pigs, horses, used to bred them. Oats, barley, wheat, beans, and fattening all these animals, but they didn't make any money.

SIGRIST:

Did they sell what they grew?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yes.

SIGRIST:

Where would they sell?

WILLIAMS:

They didn't sell grain. They'd fatten these animals with it, they'd fatten them up and sell the animal to the butcher, that's what they did. And there was an auctioneer there, there was a livestock sale once a week in the town. And that's how they lived. They didn't live to make money, they lived to exist. The lord of the manor was making the money, he was none other than the slave to him. That's why I'm in the United States, because, as it says in the paper, "with Liberty and Justice for all." Well, you couldn't find Liberty or Justice for the English farmer, or the British farmer, but you can in the United States, and you could buy your own farm that was yours and the government used to give you a loan, or other people with money, they'd give you a loan and you would buy a farm on a mortgage and pay for it.

SIGRIST:

So the money that your grandparents made just covered their rent on the farm.

WILLIAMS:

That's all. They were paid fifty-five dollars an acre, one pound, one English pound an acre. An acre of land would cost them. Well you would have to work like heck if you were to try to get one pound out of an acre of land.

SIGRIST:

Was the land in Wales good for raising cattle and grain or was it bad soil?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yes, it was rich, it was rich ground. And on the mountains there was sheep. That's where the sheep were, because there was no heavy snow like we find here. See, some days yes, it would snow, but it would all be gone probably in a day or two and the sheep would be no worse off.

SIGRIST:

So it was fertile ground, at least they can grow things.

WILLIAMS:

But, remember, the ground was rich in minerals. Now you take South Wales, where thousands of miners in the coal mines and they were mining this coal and putting it on a ship and send it to Italy. There is no coal in Italy. They used to use coal from Wales. Those ships that would take it from one end to the other would carry coal to Italy.

SIGRIST:

And that is primarily what is in South Wales, the coal mines and North of Wales, you're from the North of Wales, you have limestone and slate. I see.

WILLIAMS:

Slate, things like that. And so, but they were Britishers, they were Britishers like the Irish, but they stuck to their own. We used to say you are Welsh, you were born Welsh, and you'll always be Welsh. Don't give in to the English. Well, when you think of it, more than anybody more grabby, more advancable, if you call it that, than the English were. Look what they did, Newfoundland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and other countries they belonged to the English.

SIGRIST:

Was there resentment between the people who lived in your town all year round, the poor people, and the English who were vacationing there?

WILLIAMS:

They didn't show any hatred, no, because they were depending upon the English for coming in, see, that's what made them keep going.

SIGRIST:

They needed them.

WILLIAMS:

They needed them.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe for me, the house that your grandparents lived in, the house you grew up in?

WILLIAMS:

It was a, like this here kitchen. This is the fireplace, there was a fireplace in here, and the chimney was going up. (he gestures) They cooked. This is the only heat they've got in the house. They close the doors, if you want to heat this room, and everybody was sitting in the kitchen to eat. And so, in the summertime, they'd have all the doors open and they'd live all through the house but in the wintertime it was the only place that was warm was by the fire.

SIGRIST:

And this was a big fireplace.

WILLIAMS:

A big fireplace. And the coal, one pound a ton, that's five dollars a ton, from South Wales, we'd get the coal in. And that's how they lived.

SIGRIST:

Was there a stove or something that burned the coal?

WILLIAMS:

No.

SIGRIST:

You burned it in the fireplace?

WILLIAMS:

Fireplace, yes, fireplace.

SIGRIST:

How many other rooms were there?

WILLIAMS:

Well, there was probably a living room, with two bedrooms upstairs. With a bedroom over the kitchen and a bedroom over the sitting room, upstairs. That's about all.

SIGRIST:

What was the house made out of?

WILLIAMS:

Stone.

SIGRIST:

What kind of stone?

WILLIAMS:

Limestone, because that was the only stone you can get in the place.

SIGRIST:

And what kind of a roof did it have on it?

WILLIAMS:

Slate.

SIGRIST:

All produced from local materials.

WILLIAMS:

Yes, all materials.

SIGRIST:

Now, who else lived in the house? It's you grandfather, your grandmother and you and who else? Did anyone else live there?

WILLIAMS:

Well, that's the whole family. The whole family would. Whoever it was. I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about all the families. You'd probably would have three or four children. You would have eight or ten children over there. But the cry was, "Maggie has gone pregnant again but there is always room for one more." That's the cry. A big family. A size of the family was the thing.

SIGRIST:

So big families. Was having big families common to the poor people, or were the rich families having big families too.

WILLIAMS:

No, the rich was rich and they controlled more of their life. Having children was a blessing more than anything else in Wales, a blessing.

SIGRIST:

So the more children you have the better the family is.

WILLIAMS:

The more you have, there's always room for one more.

SIGRIST:

Well now, in the house you lived in with your grandparents, who else lived there with you?

WILLIAMS:

Oh, there was seven of us children.

SIGRIST:

Seven that were your mother and your father's?

WILLIAMS:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Can you name them?

WILLIAMS:

They were my grandfather and grandmother when I went to them after my mother left and went to work. But there were seven children in the house.

SIGRIST:

So your parents inherited all seven children. Did your mother live in the house with you also?

WILLIAMS:

No, she was working.

SIGRIST:

She lived in the house that she was working in, as a servant. She lived at the house.

WILLIAMS:

Oh, she lived at the house, yes, probably several nights away.

SIGRIST:

How often did you see your mother?

WILLIAMS:

Well, I don't see, I can't say I used to be acquainted with her. I could today swear to you, this is my Momma, I'm not sure who she is.

SIGRIST:

So you saw her very seldomly then.

WILLIAMS:

Very seldom, so there you are.

SIGRIST:

Can you name your brothers and sisters?

WILLIAMS:

Well, they were my aunt and uncles so to speak. They were the children of my grandmother and my grandfather and I was brought up with them. My mother's father and mother. And she was one of the children, there was seven of them, see? And I was the youngest, I was the tot. And they accepted that I was a part of the family. And that's all there was.

SIGRIST:

So this was a big noisy household.

WILLIAMS:

Oh, yes, when they were all home. But, as time went on, year after year, there was always one left. They had moved out and gone to work, so eventually, my grandfather and grandmother, my two uncles so to speak, were there and they were running the farm. Two boys, they were running the farm. And I when I grew up I had to go clean the barn and all this and that. I got along fine.

SIGRIST:

What other jobs do you remember having to do on the farm, you talked about cleaning the barn. What other kinds of things did you do?

WILLIAMS:

Plow, I had to plow it with the team of horses, and put the sow in. We used to sow by hand. We had a bag in here, (he gestures) so the seed as we was going along from one end of the field to the other, see, backwards and forwards. All day long. And then you'd have a cultivator, pulled with a team of horses to bury it, to bury the seed. And that's how we done it. And in those days we used to do everything by hand. Now everything is machinery, everything is machinery.

SIGRIST:

Did your grandfather own any kind of farm machinery? Did he own maybe one piece of farm machinery?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yes. What he had to do was like a drag, a roller, a plow, a lorry, what they call a "lorry,"a wagon, four wheels and that's all. But they didn't have a thrashing machine, that came around later. That was privately owned, and it went from farm to farm.

SIGRIST:

That's interesting. What kind of food did your grandmother make for this family. What kind of food did you eat in Wales when you were a kid growing up?

WILLIAMS:

Well, let me tell you something, I'm not saying nothing to tell you it was a shame. We were living on that farm that you may say from hand to mouth, like every other farmer. They were not making money on farms, it cost them too much rent to the lord of the manor. And if you didn't pay it, get out. So, my father and mother would live as cheap as they could, save every bit of bread, save every meat, save everything for the next meal. And live from hand to mouth.

SIGRIST:

Is there anything specifically, that you remember, perhaps something that your grandmother served over and over again to all these people.

WILLIAMS:

Yes, tell you. She used to be very careful with the bread, she used to bake her own bread. And we'd have a big oven and put the bread in that oven. She would save all the crusts, every bit of it and in the morning my mother, we didn't used to have oatmeal like we do in the United States or in England we would just pour boiling water on these crusts and put a spoon full of pig's fat in the bowl to put a flavor on it. That's what we used to have instead of having oatmeal. Everybody would eat a bowl of that, no complaints. Then there was another time, we would be my brother and I or as we may say my younger uncle so to speak, come back to work, come from school, the National School and we'd have dinner, my mother wouldn't have much of anything to give, she'd boil an egg and split it in half and give one half to you and one half to me. That's your dinner with a cup of tea. That's your dinner. It was hard, hard living I'm telling you. END OF SIDE A, TAPE ONE BEGIN SIDE B, TAPE ONE

SIGRIST:

When you were a child, is there something that you remember, obviously this is very hard, this is a very hard life, is there something that you remember as a child, a really happy time. Something that sticks out in your mind that you remember that was a time when you were really happy when you were a kid.

WILLIAMS:

Well, you have only one way to live and that was happy. You didn't expect to make money and to be rich. You made that best of what you had. Sure, you made the best of everything you had. Boy oh, boy you bet you did.

SIGRIST:

How did you get your clothes?

WILLIAMS:

Well, when you was home, my mother used to pass my two uncles' shirts, if they were pretty well worn, and pass them to me and I would wear them and she'd patch them up, sew them up, patch them up. And that's how we got our clothes. If anybody was outgrown with a suit, I would get it. I would get that suit. wouldn't have to pay for it, I used to get it for nothing. Like my two uncles, they used to outgrow their clothes and they would pass them on to me.

SIGRIST:

What about shoes?

WILLIAMS:

Yes, the same with shoes.

SIGRIST:

Was there a cobbler in town who made your shoes?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yes, it was the shoes them days were nailed with hobble, hobble shoes, nails under the soles, and that is how they used to build those shoes, with nails, hobble nails as they called them. So they got along fine, they never complained, never complained.

SIGRIST:

What was school like?

WILLIAMS:

School, I'm sorry to say this. School was all English, was all English. Don't speak a word of Welsh, not while your inside this school. The language is English. Don't forget that. Well, in those, in these days, the United States, or in England I supposed now, they, the teacher of a class, was very very demanding and she'd always have a big stick, a big stick and she'd hold it in her hand and she'd wallop the heck out of you, she'd wallop the heck out of you, for the least little, tiny little error or something. You may have spelled the word wrong or something and she'd flog you. And if she didn't, the headmaster would sit there on the desk and he would flog you. It was miserable to go to the school in those days. Don't talk, don't whisper. If you wanted to go to the men's room, get right up and hold your hand up. Don't talk. And the teacher would say, "Go on, go on." He'd say it like that.

SIGRIST:

Did they insist on you speaking English in school because this town had so many English people coming to it?

WILLIAMS:

Coming to it, yes, but amongst ourselves, the Welsh, we would talk Welsh. But when there was English around us we wouldn't think about talking Welsh. We'd talk English. And so, there was in Scotland, in Northern Scotland, they preserved the language, and in South of Ireland, there was Irish been taught. It was preserved there in the South of Ireland, like Welsh in Wales. But the English made you understand, "We are the supreme people. You do as we tell you," and that's the way we lived.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember in this town, did the English have police, or anything like that?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yes, we had about five or six policeman.

SIGRIST:

And they were English.

WILLIAMS:

No, they were Welsh, and so because they would be dealing with these Welsh, and if they were English they couldn't understand them. So they got along alright. They gave in, the Welsh always gave in to the English because we were depending upon the English on the life.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember within your time in Wales, of any kind of violent act by the British to the Welsh? Do remember any kind of uprising or something?

WILLIAMS:

Yes, the feeling inside of you! That you were conquered, you were conquered by the enemy, and they were calling themselves English. They had the first word to say and the last word to say. The Welsh would keep there mouth shut. So that's the way it is.

SIGRIST:

Let's talk about church, and we'll get away from the English for a minute. Tell me about , was your family a religious family?

WILLIAMS:

Very, very, religious. Now, my father and mother or as to speak my grandfather and grandmother, because they had become my father and mother by now, I had grown up with them. Well, if a, well, what would you say?

SIGRIST:

Did they go to church a lot?

WILLIAMS:

Yes, there were three things in the family that counted more than anything else in the world. First the home, the second my father's work, see, as a farmer. The third was the chapel. There was no church, it was a chapel. There's only one church, the Church of England, the Episcopalian as we call it today. They got along alright and so I believe, I'm not sure, I'm not sure whether the churches were taxed and donating, the donation to the English, the Church of England. I'm not sure. I was too young to have known them things, but I believe they did.

SIGRIST:

What was the sect of the Welsh church, what denomination was the Welsh church?

WILLIAMS:

Methodist, Congregation, Baptist...,

SIGRIST:

What were your grandparents?

WILLIAMS:

Baptist.

SIGRIST:

Baptists. How did they practice their religion in their house?

WILLIAMS:

Well, they were very, very, secretive. When you were in the house, the family was around the table, you were not talking very loud. You were talking in whispers because you were performing a duty, a holy duty. The good Lord was feeding you, your dinner, your breakfast, your supper, you see? The good Lord was right there with us. That's the meaning of the thing, do you understand that?

SIGRIST:

So it was all kind of very, hushed up, sort of.

WILLIAMS:

It was hushed up. That's it. That's all the denominations there was in my time, but now there are several denominations, new denominations. But religion in my day, when I was a boy, was very, very secretive, very, very, secretive.

SIGRIST:

That must of been very difficult for the people who would like to worship openly but couldn't really and didn't.

WILLIAMS:

Well, no, you could, but you go to your own church, your own chapel. Now that's a chapel, it isnt a church. It's a chapel. You could do what you like there, that's yours, that's your choice.

SIGRIST:

And was there a Welsh clergyman that was associated?

WILLIAMS:

Yes, they were all Welsh clergyman, like there was in Utica. There was three very large Welsh churches with the Welsh language being performed in Utica when I came here, with about five, six, seven hundred people in each one of them, you see? There you are.

SIGRIST:

What did you do for entertainment in those days? What did you do for fun, if you just wanted to have fun?

WILLIAMS:

You just went outside, you just went outside.

SIGRIST:

What would you do outside?

WILLIAMS:

If you were playing with a horseshoe, toss it. If you were playing cricket, you play with a bat and a ball, but mostly you had to work. There was no playing about it. There's work to be done. It's got to be done.

SIGRIST:

Because of your grandfather's farm, did you not go to school consistently? Did you often work on the farm rather than going to school?

WILLIAMS:

No, there was a time when they would be calling two or three days to put the grain in. Then you stay away from school. But the headmaster knew, you had to report it, notify him, "I'll be absent for three days. We are putting in wheat or potatoes," or something. And you knew he knew that you, those are the jobs that you had to do. But, the rest of the boys and girls they don't go, they had no farm. They were living in the city. So there you are.

SIGRIST:

Let me ask you a question about Christmas for instance. How would you celebrate Christmastime.

WILLIAMS:

Well, I certainly didn't have money, so you couldn't spend money, and probably the nearest thing I can tell you is you buy an orange, an orange. May Father Christmas bless you and give you the orange, that's about the size of it.

SIGRIST:

Was there a dinner associated with Christmas?

WILLIAMS:

Yes, but it was all home food. Everything was home cooked and there was nothing bought on the farm, but there was in the town, they would buy. They had no place else to go but to go to the butcher shop and buy things. Here we are.

SIGRIST:

Why, what was your first job, did you ever get a job besides working on the farm?

WILLIAMS:

Well, when I was thirteen years old, I had to go to school until I'm fourteen. The holidays were in September, two weeks in August and in September, six weeks. And so my birthday was on the third of October, so my father and mother told me, your grandfather and mother they want you to go up on the farm to my grand... my father's grandmother and father. They were on the farm, way back, about four, five miles away. And they wanted me to go there and live with them and receive everything with them. So, I went there when I was thirteen years old. I didn't finish school until it was October and so I stayed there three years.

SIGRIST:

This is with William Williams right?

WILLIAMS:

No, this is with Kyffin Jones. This is with Kyffin Jones, my grandfather's father and mother. They were my great-grandfather and mother.

SIGRIST:

Oh, I see, great-grandparents, and this is for whom your named?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, I'm named after him, Kyffin Jones.

SIGRIST:

And they had a farm also, your great-grandparents.

WILLIAMS:

Yes, they did. Well, I, my grandfather passed away and my grandmother lived for about two years afterwards, she passed away. My aunt, his daughters, they ran the farm and I commenced to think, there you were working on the farm seven days a week, and fourteen, fifteen hours a day, and you were not getting anything, only a shilling and three pence. That's fifty cents a week. For doing all that work, fifty cents. And I commenced to think, very seriously, "Is this right?" No, I couldn't make it right. "This is slavery." Now in the mines over there, they are getting five dollars a week, but they are worked like slaves. Five dollars a week over there. Well, what happened, I made up my mind that I wasn't going to be farmer. And so I had an uncle, my father or my grandfather had a job in a supermarket, he was a bookeeper in a supermarket. And I made up my mind one day, I'm going there and I'm going to ask him, "Can you get me a job over here. I'd like to come and work in industries instead of being on the farm." And he agreed but he said, "As soon as there would be an opening, I'll come and get you." It would be fourteen shilling a week, that be three dollars a week. You have to pay your room and board and you work. I was driving a horse and cart, two wheel cart, delivering orders from the supermarket. They didn't have automobiles in those days. You had to carry the groceries yourself, but my job was to deliver that order to the home. Probably I had twenty-four orders on the wagon. And that's the way I worked for three years and I was making somewhere around a couple of shillings. Save a couple of shilling a week, and it took me three years to get enough money to come to the United States.

SIGRIST:

Now are you in the same town? Is the grocery store....

WILLIAMS:

No, I'm six miles away.

SIGRIST:

What town are you in now?

WILLIAMS:

Abergele.

SIGRIST:

Spell that for me, please.

WILLIAMS:

A-B-E-R-G-E-L-E.

SIGRIST:

And that's six miles away.

WILLIAMS:

Six miles away.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how old your great-grandparents were when they died?

WILLIAMS:

No.

SIGRIST:

Were they elderly?

WILLIAMS:

No, they were very elderly. I was in the United States when they died. I was in Utica.

SIGRIST:

Did your great-grandparents have the same set up as you grandparents? Did they rent their farm?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah. They didn't own an inch of it. It belonged to the lord of the manor. And you had to do what was right from within, because he'd give you orders, get out.

SIGRIST:

Were you excited about getting this job in the grocery store?

WILLIAMS:

I was, very excited. But, I was putting all my trust in my uncle and he got me a job. But, I started with fourteen shillings and I ended up with sixteen shillings, they gave me a two shilling raise. And I saved in three years time, a hundred dollars, but I would go without underwear, without drawers, just the pants, the shirt, I was afraid to spend the money. If I spent the money then I wouldn't have it, if I bought clothes. And I was living a secret life in myself.

SIGRIST:

Where were you living when you were working at the grocery store? Where did you live?

WILLIAMS:

In a boarding house, I had one room up on the third floor, one back room. And I was, I had to cook my own meals and make my own bed and things like that. And we got along alright.

SIGRIST:

Was it lonely for you to not be around your family?

WILLIAMS:

No, my whole anxious, my own idea was to set foot on the U.S. soil, in America. So, here I am.

SIGRIST:

Now you said you were saving up your money. Did you put it in the bank or did you save it in your room?

WILLIAMS:

No, I put it in the post office, the bank in the post office. And so I saved it, every penny of it, yeah.

SIGRIST:

We are going to pause so that I can put another tape in the machine. Just for a second. END OF SIDE B, TAPE ONE. BEGIN SIDE A, TAPE TWO

SIGRIST:

This is Paul Sigrist beginning tape two with Kyffin Williams, who came from Wales in 1914, when he was nineteen. Mr. Williams, let's get you to America. So you're saving up your money, and was there someone in America that you were corresponding with?

WILLIAMS:

No, but it is, I'll make it short. In 1913, I went to church, Sunday school. There was about twelve of us in the same class, in the Sunday school class, and there was one young fellow that just arrived, and he was a stranger and I didn't know him. I did get to know him. I found out exactly what I wanted. He had been in New York for four years working in a stable there, taking care of horses. And so, I got to know him very well. And I was asking him questions about America, because I got my idea of going there when as soon as I can. And he was telling me all about it, these things. One Sunday afternoon, it was in January, ah January, February, March, he said to me, we were, coming out of the church, he said to me, "I am going back to America. I can't find a job here that's worth a thing. I'm going back. Hey," he said, "Why don't you come with me?" "Well, Dave," I said, "I'd like to, but I haven't got me enough money." He said, "How much have you got?" "Well," I said, "I've got twenty pounds." "You've got enough, and if you run out of money, I'll give you a hundred dollars. Come with me to America. That's the place for you." I said, "Alright, let's go across over here now and book the passage." And so we went over there, the agent was living right across were we were talking, and uh, we went there and he said "Within two weeks I can reserve a passage for you to go to America." Two weeks. So we gave him a pound, five dollars. I said, you know, towards the ticket. Well, anyway, we got, the next day, I went to the post office. I got my money out, and I paid my passage, fifty dollars for my passage. And I told Dave that I would give them another five dollars to put down on his. So Dave came and he settled with it for his ticket. And in two weeks we were on our way to United States of America. But there is a lot more to it than that.

SIGRIST:

What was his name? Dave?

WILLIAMS:

Dave.

SIGRIST:

What was his last name?

WILLIAMS:

Dave Lloyd.

SIGRIST:

Lloyd. And um, what had he been doing in America before he went to Wales?

WILLIAMS:

Well, taking care of these horses in the stable in New York. And they go there and they'd hire a horse and they'd ride it around the park, keep a going around the park all the while, see, then bring it back to the stable and then Dave would take care of the horse. And that's what he did for four years.

SIGRIST:

Well, this is what you wanted all along. This is your big chance.

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, this, yeah, well I says, "Dave, what's the wages you get?" "I'm getting fifty dollars a week, a month, fifty dollars a month, but I'm getting about fifty dollars in tips. In tips!" That's about sixty dollars. "Well," I says, "For what little I get, for a few pennies and I've got to save it. It wouldn't pay me to stay in Wales." "Come with me and if you run out of money I'll give you a hundred dollars," and I did and we landed in New York.

SIGRIST:

How did your grandparents feel about you leaving?

WILLIAMS:

I didn't tell them a thing. I didn't tell them. No, and I didn't go to see them. It was too hard. It would be perfectly too hard to say goodbye to them at the age they were in. And so I knew they were much better off if I didn't. And I never did. But, I did afterwards.

SIGRIST:

You wrote to them.

WILLIAMS:

I wrote to them right along. I wrote to them to tell them that I was in America. That I was making twelve dollars a week, twelve dollars a week, that's, three dollars, three, 12 shillings a week. So I did.

SIGRIST:

What did you take with you when you went?

WILLIAMS:

Just my clothes. Exactly, my clothes. Just enough, a couple of shirts and that's about all.

SIGRIST:

Did you have a suitcase or something?

WILLIAMS:

I had a kind of a trunk, but what was in it didn't amount to much. And I got along fine.

SIGRIST:

Where did you leave from?

WILLIAMS:

So we landed in New York.

SIGRIST:

Where did you leave from?

WILLIAMS:

Liverpool, England.

SIGRIST:

And what was the name of the boat?

WILLIAMS:

Baltic.

SIGRIST:

You came on the Baltic.

WILLIAMS:

On the Baltic.

SIGRIST:

How did you get from where you were in Wales to Liverpool?

WILLIAMS:

On the train.

SIGRIST:

Do you have any memories of that train ride?

WILLIAMS:

No, but you get to the station at seven o'clock in the morning and it was going to land in Liverpool, eight o'clock. It you an hour to go from Colwyn Bay to Liverpool down there. It was fifty miles away. So we got there.

SIGRIST:

Had you ever seen a big boat before?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yeah, they were on the Irish sea. They were going back and forth all day.

SIGRIST:

Had you ever ridden on one?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yeah, plenty, up to the Isle of Man yeah, yeah we used to go and ride on a holiday. There were a lot of holidays. And so that's what I did with the other boys. But it only cost a few shillings and that's the only good time we had, and so...

SIGRIST:

Tell me about the Baltic. What do you remember about the boat.

WILLIAMS:

Well, Dave Lloyd told me, he says, "We will go on the second class, we will go on the second class." I says "Why? Why not the third?" "Because," he says "If you go on third, go in the steerage, where all the others were, down there below there, you'll have to go to Ellis Island, and they'll examine you in Ellis Island, but if you go on the second class, they'll examine you on board ship. Let you go out right straight from the ship on to the sidewalk. But they won't if you were down below. So we are paying ten dollars, five dollars down there, ten pounds over here, five pounds down below. And that's what we did.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe your accommodations on the boat for me?

WILLIAMS:

Well, there was an awful, awful lot, I didn't know this, (he coughs) when you go there, stand on the platform, waiting for the ship to open up, you find people from other nationalities. They've come across Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, places like that. Ethiopia, Egypt, Jews, Germans, they come across the channel and come to across England into Liverpool. They could do it better and easier by doing that, by not going, wait for a boat to take to go to their own country. They couldn't, see, so they was all kinds of nationalities on the ship. I was so surprised, not only the English, the English, that were up on the first floor, there were the English people and so a piece of us, they were foreigners, and so, I never knew that. Well, when you get to New York, they examine you and they want to know how much money you got and if you haven't got enough money they won't let you land. You've got to have money, you're not going to live on no relief. That was in 1914. So, we got here, we got off the boat at nine o'clock and we landed in Utica at four o'clock.

SIGRIST:

How long did the boat ride last?

WILLIAMS:

Nine days, ah, eleven days.

SIGRIST:

Eleven days. Was it a rough journey?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yeah. it was ter, ter, terrible rough.

SIGRIST:

Did you get sick?

WILLIAMS:

Well yes. I was sick and sick and I remember that I used to drink and it and I said to my, one of my friends, he was a Welshman and he was travelling on the same class, same class, second class with me, with Dave, Dave Lloyd. He says, I says "Bill, I'm so sick I could jump into that water and stay there." He says, "Come on, come with me," and we went to the bar and he gave me a glass of whiskey. He says, "Take this, drink it." And I drank it and my sea sickness got over. I got over it with this whiskey. The first whiskey I ever had in my life. So, ah...

SIGRIST:

Can you... I'm sorry. Can you describe where you slept on the boat? Can you describe what it looked like?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, there was uh, uh, there was two beds over here, one over there, one over there about the size of this bed, and another one over here, wall over there, and I was sleeping over there and there was four other men in there besides us, three other men with Dave and myself. And uh, we got along alright.

SIGRIST:

Were they Welsh?

WILLIAMS:

No, they were Scotch and English. Yeah, but they couldn't speak Welsh, but we could, and we could speak English, we could understand them. So...

SIGRIST:

Was there a dining room on the boat?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yeah, plenty of dining room, big dining room, very large dining room, and waitresses coming in there with them, carrying on, taking care of you, oh yeah...

SIGRIST:

Did they have activities for you on the boat? Did they have activities for you on the boat, things to do?

WILLIAMS:

No, it was too crowded, too crowded. It wasn't there to entertain the passengers, it was to take them across the Atlantic ocean. That was the purpose of the ship, and that's what they did.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember seeing the Statue of Liberty, when you came into New York?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Tell me about that.

WILLIAMS:

This man that was with me, this Dave Lloyd, "Say," he said, "Come over here." I remember quite well. "You see that over there?" I said, "Yes." "It's what they call the Statue of Liberty." When we were passing it with the boat. "Statue of Liberty. Take a good look at it. You are going to hear plenty about that Statue of Liberty." And so, uh, we got on the landing station, on the platform, and we got off the boat. We went through, they searched our belongings and they told us to go, it would be alright. And we uh, we had booked our passage, train from Abergele on the Delaware and Lackawanna railroad.

SIGRIST:

Yes, Delaware and Lackawanna, yes.

WILLIAMS:

And we came through Pittsburgh, Scranton, Birmingham, Binghamton, into Utica. We got there around four o'clock in the afternoon.

SIGRIST:

That was a long train ride.

WILLIAMS:

A long train ride. But, it was cheaper, and they were working on passages. Most of them what they did not the Grand Central, see? So here we are.

SIGRIST:

What time of year was this that you came? What time of the year was it when you crossed?

WILLIAMS:

April the first. April the first.

SIGRIST:

Is that when you landed?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

April the first of 1914.

WILLIAMS:

Well, right around that. April the first, yeah.

SIGRIST:

So David Lloyd went with you to Utica.

WILLIAMS:

Came with me right to Utica, and I didn't know it. He had an uncle and an aunt here. He never told me about it. And they were in the coal business, Utica Coal Company on Francis Street over there. That's where they were. And I got to know them and...

SIGRIST:

What did David do here in Utica?

WILLIAMS:

Ah, he started to work in the mills but he didn't like it. They wasn't paying enough, working in the mills, so he quit and he went to Milwaukee. It was there that he got hired by the town, in the city to be an assistant on a uh, what was it, a hospital, a hospital carriage, what they call them...

SIGRIST:

Like an administrator, someone who works at the hospital,

WILLIAMS:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

An orderly?

WILLIAMS:

No, he was working on a car, on a car.

SIGRIST:

A mechanic?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, and anyway if you was sick and if you called a hospital in Milwaukee, they'd send him there.

SIGRIST:

Oh, an ambulance driver.

WILLIAMS:

An ambulance, but he wasn't the driver. He was the attendant, he was taking care of the patient while the driver was there taking them to the hospital, and that's what he did. But,

SIGRIST:

Did you correspond with him after he was gone?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yeah, right along. Corresponded with me right along.

SIGRIST:

Well, tell me what you did up here in Utica for those first couple of years. What was it like getting adjusted to this country?

WILLIAMS:

Have we got time, till one o'clock in the morning?

SIGRIST:

Go right ahead. Okay, we are going to pause the tape for just one moment. (interview is paused)

WILLIAMS:

That's good, fifty-four percent of the marriages end up in divorces today, fifty-four percent.

SIGRIST:

We're now returning with Kyffin Williams, ah, the tape is now not paused, and you're going to begin to tell us when, what you did when you came to Utica. Take your time. Go ahead and take your time.

WILLIAMS:

We came to Utica on the Delaware and Lackawanna Railroad, and his uncle was here to meet us down at the station and so he, he said to me, "I'm going to take my nephew over here to my home and I'm going to take you to the Welsh hotel, William's Hotel on Blandina Street and there's all the Welsh people there. So he did, he drove up Genessee street and he turned on Blandina Street and he made a stop in front of the hotel. He was driving a car, something that was very new in those days. So when I came in from the car to the lobby, the manager was sitting over there by the desk and there was a row of people along here, quite a big row of them. They were all men. And so, I went into the manager, the owner of the hotel, Kim Williams and I told him I just arrived from Wales and so forth and I would be staying in the hotel for a week or so. So, he was listening and all at once, "Hey you men! Anyone want to hire a man just arrived from Wales? He can milk a cow, feed a pig, drive a horse, he can do anything. Anyone want to?" When come to find out they were dueling with the sheriff sitting over there at the end. Waiting for the dining room door to open, in the dining room. And, anybody, and about three or four of them got up. "I'd like to hire you on the farm. I'm a farmer." "Well, I don't want to work on a farm if I can help it." So I let it go at that. There was an old man sitting at the very end of the row. He came up to me and he said, "I was standing by the desk." He said, "Young man, you don't want to work on a farm do you?" "No sir, not if I can help it." He says, "I'll hire you. You work for me, I'm a superintendent of the Borden's Condensery in Waterville, twenty miles from here." I says, "Alright sir, I'll come and work for you." I didn't know what I was talking about. "Well, you be ready by seven o'clock. We'll get on a train, seven o'clock. The dining room will be open at six o'clock in the morning. You'll have breakfast and off we'll go down Genessee Street." And that's what we did. And we got to Waterville, eight o'clock. And he took me to a rooming house, a boarding house, and he told me, "If you want to come to work at one o'clock, you can. But be sure to be here tomorrow morning, be sure." And I said, "Yes sir." And I went there that afternoon, Tuesday afternoon, to work. The next day after I got up, and I was shoveling coal, you know, with a shovel. And I stayed there a week. When Saturday morning came, he came to me, he said, "Young man, it is customary for you to go to church on a Sunday, isn't it?" I said, "Yes sir." "Well," he says, "you better take off tomorrow is Sunday. Take the day off. Down below here there is a Welsh church and there is a very large congregation there, so you can get acquainted with the Welsh people." And so I did. Do you want to know the rest?

SIGRIST:

Sure go right ahead. Did it feel good to be around Welsh people?

WILLIAMS:

To be around Welsh people, they were farmers, Paris Hill, Deansboro, Oriskany, all over. Welsh people. Well, I did. What happened, I went to church, ten o'clock, the usually time in Wales. But, it was eleven o'clock that they went to church over here, not ten o'clock. So I was sitting on the steps of that church for pretty close to an hour when a man, I could see a man coming down the street. But the town itself was like a cemetery, so quiet. No one around there on Sunday morning. So, this man came up and he said, "Good morning, young fellow." I said, "Good morning, sir." I says, "My name is Kyffin Williams, I just arrived from Wales. I'm working for the Borden's Condensery." "Oh, that's right, very good." So he sat right down by me and he was asking questions and I was answering him when the buggies, there was horse and buggies those days, they were coming from all directions, eleven o'clock, to the church. Well, ah, then there was a young fellow there and he came and he talked with me. I couldn't understand how a nice young fellow like him was working on the farm. So, he says, "You and I can sit together in the back pew." He says "We'll sit together." And so we went into the back pew and sat there. END OF SIDE A, TAPE TWO BEGIN SIDE B, TAPE TWO

WILLIAMS:

(continuing) And the man that talked with me got up, he was the head deacon, and he was there to open the church. And what did he do? He says, "I'm sorry to say we have no minister this morning. He failed to come, to show up, and so, he notified us yesterday that he wouldn't be here. But, there's a young man just arrived from Wales. Come on boy, come." And Bob said to me, Bob Jones, he said, "Go, he wants to introduce you to the people." So I went down the aisle and I, right by him, and he got up and he introduced me to them, the people and he said, uh, so he gave me a hymnal, you know, a book, a book of hymns, and he gave it to me, and he says, "Come on now, carry on, carry on." I opened it and I was familiar with the hymns, everyone of them. I gave them to him, I was nineteen years old. Well, uh, I says after the hymn was sung, I says, "Now what?" "Go ahead, carry on, carry on." So I read a chapter, and then I said, "What is it now?" "Carry on." So I stand, carry on. Well anyway this is the thing; in November, 1913, it was customary for us, in Wales to perform a drama with a chorus, people, wealthy, good singers. And so we rehearsed this drama, (Welsh), "Pilgrim's Progress" in English. And I was appointed to be the leading man in the play, in the church. I got them, uh, and there was a, that uh, first day, we were better on a Wednesday, in Abergele. The next morning, Thursday morning we were on a ship coming to America. So, everything was fresh in my mind. Well, I said to the man, the deacon, "What now?" "Carry on, carry on, you're doing alright, carry on." Well you know there was two places in that drama that fitted in with the sermon alright. Put two parts together, you make one part. And I used that and I kept that going for about twenty minutes with the sermon. And I closed the service and the people came rushing down, shaking hands with me. "What a wonderful, wonderful sermon it was. It was beautiful. We liked it." But I didn't tell them that I got that in a book of drama, see? I never told them.

SIGRIST:

What a great way to meet everyone.

WILLIAMS:

Well, everybody was praising me for doing it. Well, uh, I didn't go to the church for another month. When one of my days off was on a Sunday. So, I went there and I knew everybody, other Sundays I had to work, putting milk in a bottle on top with a rubber. But anyway, it went along, the fourth of August landed and word came that the Germans had declared war on France, on August the fourth, 1914. Well, and they said that the English, the British are going to declare war on Germany. So that day England declared war on Germany, the First World War. Well, this was August the fourth. Well it went on for a week, for about a month, and in the month of September, I had said goodbye to a young girl. And uh, I knew her very well. And so, uh, I never expected to see her again, never, so we, uh, in September. I couldn't understand the boys talking about Utica, Old Home Week. What does it mean? It means that the invitation is sent out to the old-timers all over the country to come and visit Utica for a week, for the old-timers. That's what the boys were talking about in the Borden's, they were talking about it. So I said to myself, "I'll go down there." I'll take the train at nine o'clock, and I'd get to Utica. I had nothing else to do, so I went, I went. And anyway what happened, uh, I landed in Utica on a Thursday, and one day, when I landed in Utica, there was crowds and thousands of people from the Union Station way up Genessee Street. The old-timers had come home for a week. And they were there visiting the old-timers. So, I got to know them, a lot of them. But, they uh, I went to the Hotel Williams for dinner at noon. And I knew Mr. Williams by now and he said to me "Don't forget to come early for your dinner tonight so you can catch the train to take you right to Waterville, twenty miles away." I said, "Yes sir." And I did, I got my dinner. I walked down Genessee Street and in those days there was street cars, you know, street cars, trolley cars they call them going up and down Genessee Street. And, they were going over a bridge, the Mohawk Bridge, and I knew very well that what was in those boxes with those mules pulling it, were wheat going to England. I knew that from my studies. And so I said, "Good bye, good bye," and I turned around. There was two boys standing over there, and one of them had his mouth open and the other was laughing. And the one that had his mouth open said to me, "Hello Kyffin! How are you?" "Am I supposed to know you?" "Why yes! I'm Billy Davis, I used to go to infant school with you. Do you remember? I used to go in Colwyn Bay, used to go to infant school." "Oh yeah, little Bill, I remember you." And he says, "This is Bob Williams. He comes from Wales. Well, say," he says, "there was a young girl here, just arrived, uh, Sunday, ahhh, Saturday morning, and she was in the Welsh church Sunday morning and she was inquiring about you. And she wanted to know where Waterville was, twenty miles away. And nobody knew you. They didn't hear about you, but now uh," "Well say," I says, "Where does she live?" "About three blocks up, up, Genessee Street." "Alright, show me the way." It was six o'clock then and I had to get on the train by seven. So off we went and we got to the house. And he said, "That's the door. You knock on that door and somebody will open for you." Bill, and Will was with us, they come with us, they were on the other side of the street. And I went and who opened the door but this young girl that I knew in Colwyn Bay. She had lived next door to her. I knew her. She had come all the way during the war across the Atlantic, and she had some horrible things to say about the submarines, torpedo boats and so forth. "And, I knew I could pick you some place sooner or later, I'd get to know you, but here I am." "Well," I says, " I haven't got the time to talk to you now, but," I says, "give me your name and address." And she did, and I wrote to her, and I wrote for her, for two weeks. And, so, I wrote to her, and I said that I'd be there to see her, and I did. And so, I had some old clothing, I was wearing some old clothing, British old clothing. The pants was tight, as the style in those days. So, I came to see her and we had a nice visit. And we knew very well then that she was going to be my wife, sooner or later. I knew the good Lord wouldn't send her all the way across the Atlantic during the war if he didn't have the same intention. but anyway, I made myself go home in Waterville. I used to go every other Saturday to Utica, Saturday night. I could ride a bicycle to Clinton, twelve miles away, and I could make it in half an hour. And I could get the street car uh, and I could get on the bus and comes right down to Utica. And my wife-to-be, was standing on the corner. And that's the way we did.

SIGRIST:

What was her name?

WILLIAMS:

Florence.

SIGRIST:

What was her maiden name?

WILLIAMS:

Williams.

SIGRIST:

And when did you marry?

WILLIAMS:

Well, uh, the war broke out, the war had been going on for two years between France, England and Germany, for two years. And so, one day, the Germans did something that was neutral, it was out of style. She sank a boat, a passenger ship or something. And the United States, Woodrow Wilson, was the president, and Woodrow Wilson declared war on Germany for destroying all these people that was on the ship. And so, uh, that's how she came here.

SIGRIST:

When did you get married? Do you remember the date?

WILLIAMS:

Uh, no, no, I don't remember the date at all.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember the year?

WILLIAMS:

Uh, it was in June. In June, I think it was.

SIGRIST:

Was it after the war?

WILLIAMS:

No, during the war. Uh, we went, I remember we go to the court house, the city hall. We got the license, we walked to the minister and asked him to come to the house and to marry us that night. He did and we were married that night, in Utica.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how old you were?

WILLIAMS:

Uh, she was about twenty-two

SIGRIST:

How old were you?

WILLIAMS:

Twen..., twenty-two.

SIGRIST:

You were twenty-two?

WILLIAMS:

Yeah, and so we lived together for sixty-two years, sixty-two years.

SIGRIST:

What are the names of your children?

WILLIAMS:

Irene, one, just one child, but oh, we got along alright. So, uh,...

SIGRIST:

Do you still speak any Welsh?

WILLIAMS:

Oh, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Could you recite the Lords Prayer for me in Welsh? Would you do that please?

WILLIAMS:

Oh yeah. Are you listening? Alright, let us bow down and pray to the good Lord. And I will repeat the Lord's Prayer in the Welsh language. (Recites Lord's prayer in Welsh.)

SIGRIST:

Thank you. Thank you.

WILLIAMS:

That's in Welsh.

SIGRIST:

That was wonderful.

WILLIAMS:

But, you know something? There are lots and lots of Welsh people, they request me, because there's no Welsh minister there today in Utica. There's no Welsh church here anymore, that fizzled out. And when they are buried, they want the Lord's Prayer to be said and the Twenty-third Psalm. "The Lord is my shepherd," to be said at the funeral, at the grave. And I did, always. But, I never, never charged nobody one penny. And I do it.

SIGRIST:

I'm sure it meant a lot to them. We're almost done. I have one final question to ask you and then we will be done. Are you glad you came to this country?

WILLIAMS:

Why yes. Because this, I've asked that question myself, a million times. And the answer is this, "Honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee." And he, I come to the conclusion, he gave me every inch of the United States of America to live in. And I lived here now I think, eighty-four years, and I wouldn't want to live no place else. But, I'm afraid that my country, your country, everybody's country that lived here, is going to run into an awful, awful, turmoil before they can straighten out things, before things become normal again, as they were in the olden times. That's what I'm afraid of. I don't know, I don't know.

SIGRIST:

Mr. Williams, I want to thank you very much for letting me come and talk to you. We've been talking for two hours now,...

WILLIAMS:

How long?

SIGRIST:

Two, we've been talking for two hours now.

WILLIAMS:

Oh, my.

SIGRIST:

About your life, and I really appreciate you giving us the time to do this.

WILLIAMS:

Well, I've been doing church work. I was in charge of the Christian Science church for thirty-one years. I was in charge of the full thing, everything.

SIGRIST:

You've had a very full life.

WILLIAMS:

And uh, I don't know, I don't know.

SIGRIST:

This is Paul Sigrist signing off with Kyffin Williams at the Masonic home in Utica, New York, January 30, 1993. END OF INTERVIEW