LEVINE:

This is Janet Levine for the National Park Service, and I'm here today in St. Petersburg, Florida, and I'm here with Martha Hoglind, who was the sister-in-law of Asta Hoglind, who I just interviewed. And Martha came from Denmark when she was seven years old, and that was in 1927. So I feel very fortunate to have the chance to talk with you today. We'll start again at the beginning. If you would say your birth date and where you were born.

HOGLIND:

I was born October 3, 1919 in Skanderup, Denmark. I don't remember the town, because the first town I remember is Voglof there.

LEVINE:

Maybe, could you spell . . .

HOGLIND:

Okay. Skanderup is S-K-A-N-D-E-R-U-P. It's the southern part of Jutland, you know. Then we moved to, my first recollections are Vantrup, V-A-N-T-R-U-P. And we lived in a house called the Fiskeriet, which we used to fish house. It was actually a duplex.

LEVINE:

Why would you call it the fish house?

HOGLIND:

I think years before there was a stream in the back, or a creek, and they had the boxes of fish. I don't know why they kept the fish, but I guess the stock, to stock the streams. And there was a nice part of the house that was a big part, and we lived in the smaller part of the house. It was a duplex there. That's the first part I can remember.

LEVINE:

Can you spell fish house in the Danish words?

HOGLIND:

F-I-S-K-E-R-I-E . . .

ASTA:

R-I . . .

HOGLIND:

R-I-E-T. Fiskeriet.

ASTA:

Yeah. I think that would do it.

HOGLIND:

It's fishery, actually. But that's what it was called.

LEVINE:

Yeah. Now, do you remember what the house looked like?

HOGLIND:

It was red brick, and all I can remember is it was very, to me it was huge, the rich part of the house, as I called it. They had an elevator which brought up the food from the kitchen. That always struck me as very fascinating. Our side of the house was very small apart, and I can't even remember them.

LEVINE:

And who did you live there with?

HOGLIND:

My father, my mother and my two brothers.

LEVINE:

Oh HOGLIND And at that time I must say all my youth was filled with witches. There was always witches everywhere I went. You walked down the street. We had to go for milk at the farmhouse. "Don't cross this house, pass this place, because the witch lived there." ( Asta laughs ) That's the first place. We always had, you know, that's what they threatened us with.

ASTA:

I can't remember much about that area except the lilac bushes across the street.

HOGLIND:

Beautiful. My favorite flower.

ASTA:

And I don't remember too much about that particular place.

LEVINE:

Was your family superstitious, or was that just a kind of a threat to keep you in line? ( she laughs )

HOGLIND:

Oh, it was a threat to keep us in line. So we ran fast before, when we went by her house. And at that, that's where they must have decided to go to America. My mother, my father was Swedish, and he had met my mother in a little town called Hald outside of Rondas.

LEVINE:

H-A-T?

HOGLIND:

H-A-L-D. Hald. And it was outside of Rondas. My mother's family were farmers. My grandfather had a big farm in Herregaard, H-E-R-R-E-G-A-A-R-D, Herregaard. But when I knew him he had retired, sold his farm to one of the husbands or one of his daughters. But he was a small town. It was a lovely, lovely little town. And all the, and after my father, well, let me see if I should start here. It doesn't matter, I guess. They, my father was a Swede, and he had left Sweden to escape the draft. I hate to say that, but he was an electrician, and he came to this little town in Denmark. I guess it must have been around 1916. He met my mother. He was a tall, good-looking Swede.

LEVINE:

Now, what was his name?

HOGLIND:

His name was Karl Christian Hoglind, ( she repeats the name with Swedish pronunciation ) "Hoglind." And . . .

LEVINE:

And your mother's name? What was her name?

ASTA:

Anna Marie.

LEVINE:

And her maiden name?

HOGLIND:

Hoeg, H-O-E-G, which is surprisingly nearly the same. But they were meant. The story is, she was hanging out clothes in her bare feet and my father came by. Now, I don't know what the connection is here, but maybe they fell in love. ( they laugh )

LEVINE:

He liked her feet.

HOGLIND:

He liked her feet. I don't know. They always bring that in. But my grandfather disapproved. Anyone who worked, who was an electrician or worked with his hands and was a Swede at that time they, he had nothing, wanted nothing to do with it, so they had to elope. Because it was bad enough being an electrician. He wasn't a farmer, but he was also a Swede, and that was kind of bad at that time. Anyway, they eloped, with the help of some friends, I understand. And, like I say, we moved to the southern part of Juttland where we were born in different cities. And when they decided, at one time I heard that they nearly went to Russia, because times weren't so good in Denmark at that time. But she had two brothers in America. Well, actually, at that time one brother. One had come back. And they decided to go to America. But my father had to go first.

LEVINE:

Do you remember when he went?

HOGLIND:

1926, to save up enough money so we could come over.

LEVINE:

And what were your brothers names?

HOGLIND:

I have a younger brother named Hanz, and an older brother named Knud, both of them are deceased. But he was, I guess they were five and eight. Five, five-and-a-half, eight, when they came, I recollect. Then we moved in with my grandfather. He had a great, big house in this little town. To me it was enormous. It gets smaller every time I go. But it was, since this town is very small all the different, big farms around face this, they go into the street. They, how would you say it? They have buildings, they're rectangular. They have a big archway. You go through and there's buildings on either side, and then the big house here. And in the middle there's a water fountain for the horses. You go through an archway to get in. Several of these farms make up this town. They go into the streets, go into the streets, I guess. I mean, they face the streets. And then there are sections where there's residential homes, and he had a big house there. And he became the sognefode. That's the, like the, it's not a mayor because the town is too small. It's like a councilman or (?).

LEVINE:

And what was that word that you used?

HOGLIND:

I called it the sognefode. S-O-G-N-E-F-O-D-E, sognefode.

LEVINE:

So he was, he had a certain amount of power.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. I guess you could call it that. Well, he was a delight. I wish I had known him, really. Because he always dressed in black, and he had the, right here, I guess. Yeah, I guess. A black hat, and he had smoked a pipe, one of these long pipes, you know, you held here in the front. And he had great big wooden shoes with the points. And he'd walk up and down the street sighing, "(Danish)" And following him was a little schnauser. This is always my best picture of him, walking up in front of his house sighing, "(Danish)" That means, "Oh, dear me." ( they laugh ) I don't know, when he was old. And with the little dog following him.

LEVINE:

Did you ever, did you personally have experiences with him? I mean, do you remember . . .

HOGLIND:

Oh, I know he was in the house when we were there. Experiences, not really. I don't remember.

LEVINE:

Like going anywhere with him or anything.

HOGLIND:

No, no. I don't. I went to, I don't recall any particular interaction with him. You know, anything special. Except that, with the dog and him walking up and down. And . . .

LEVINE:

And his name?

HOGLIND:

His name was Hans Hoeg, Hans Hoeg, H-O-E-G. I don't know if he had a middle name or not. I'd have to look that up.

LEVINE:

And your grandmother.

HOGLIND:

My grandmother was just dead. I think her name was Martina. Martina, yeah. One of, I don't know if she was married twice or not. I'd have to look in my book for that. I can't remember that day. My mother was, came from, there was seven in her family. Yeah. Three boys and I can't remember. They were Anne Marie, Karl, Anna, Petria and three brothers, I guess. Metus. No, not Metus. There were seven. I can't remember. I guess there was three boys and three girls.

LEVINE:

There's one extra.

HOGLIND:

There's one extra. ( they laugh ) I have to count them, and you don't want to take time for that. But two of them went, two of her brothers went to America, and they were here, they were in America when she came over. Because one had come back and talked my father into going. He was Chris, and he had worked for Tom Nix. Of course, later on we found out he was just a waiter, but that was all right. It was very exciting. We thought America was, the streets were paved with gold. The kids, we'd, anyway, they decided to come, and we lived with, well, maybe I should go back to Denmark.

LEVINE:

I think we should finish this Denmark thing.

HOGLIND:

I went to school for one term, one class. Wore my little wooden shoes. We took them off and went in the classroom. It was a, well, if I can recall, a two-room schoolhouse, but it was big, like that, with the store roofs, but it was big. So they must have had different classes in there. I don't know. And we had slates and we, to wash the slates we would make water, colored water out of something, you know. That was nice. And we would, what do you call it, gretsbilda? That we would collect, we'd call them pictures.

ASTA:

Yeah. They were pictures, but they were glazed, like.

HOGLIND:

Yeah.

ASTA:

And, because we, I had them, too.

HOGLIND:

And they were very popular. Buy these, great pictures, roses, little kids. And we'd put them in our schoolbooks. That was a big hobby, and that was the thing we did. We didn't have much else. And then we played, we had balls, and we juggled. I can only juggle three. But they used to juggle six, you know, when we were kids. That was the biggest game that I can remember playing. I don't remember playing anything else. I remember going to the store for pumpernickel. To me it was this size. Of course, it probably wasn't. I'm holding it in my hands like this. ( she gestures )

LEVINE:

(?) ( they laugh )

HOGLIND:

It was bigger than me. Let's see. What else can I recall?

LEVINE:

Do you remember any stories that either you were told as a child . . .

HOGLIND:

Well, let's see. We, from the school we went, we went ice skating. I mean, there was a pond outside our town, and of course I'll always remember that because we were late going back to school, and the teacher, he went, I can't do it. ( she demonstrates ) He hit you with his finger in the forehead to these little kids, and they, all the boys got slapped on the wrists with a, it wasn't bad. But I can always remember this. ( she demonstrates )

LEVINE:

Yeah. Poking a finger in your forehead.

HOGLIND:

That's all. Any stories, well, we had a big fire once in town, outside of town. The whole town turned out running like mad. Bicycles and wagons and we all ran out to this fire, to see the farms burning, and whatever was there.

LEVINE:

Were there a lot of farmers?

HOGLIND:

Yeah. My, let's see. Three, one girl, and two of the boys, had a farm. One farm was quite out, no, one girl, two of the girls had married farmers. One bought my grandfather's house. And then there was another big farmer, bigger than my grandfather outside, Metrus Emerson's. And then there was another farm right in that same area, and we would go out and visit them when we had a chance.

LEVINE:

Do you remember what they were growing?

HOGLIND:

Oh, they grew, well, they had hay and turnips and potatoes. Because it was enormous, a big farm. Oh, of course, it was a dairy farm, so there were all the cows and the butter and that stuff. Because Denmark is a . . .

LEVINE:

Dairy.

HOGLIND:

A dairy country. That was our biggest export. It still is, I guess. And, so we'd go out there. My one cousin on that farm, she was hired by her, the biggest farm, she was hired by her father to be in charge of the cows. That's what she did. And the others worked in the houses and stuff around, but I remember her because she, rugged woman. You know, they did, when they had the harvests she worked out there. But her chief job was the cattle, getting the cattle and milked them. And the others worked in the house. And tradition, like, my mother, tradition was to go, in order to become a good housewife you went to different farmers, you were hired out. Or you took a job with the different farmers or people in houses, so you learned their way of keeping house. My mother did that, and she went to high school. These, what do they call these high schools?

ASTA:

They call them high schools, but it's, they're not high schools like we have here, you know.

HOGLIND:

No, it's a . . .

ASTA:

It's, I can't explain it, really.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. They're high schools where all the people can go, and you can brush up on, you can learn Danish, you can learn sewing, you can learn, but it's for the older, it's like vocational, it's like adult education.

LEVINE:

Right.

HOGLIND:

But they had, it's a little, a little fancier, I guess.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And they had that in Denmark at that time.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. And they, it is the beginning of something over here, but I can't recall what that is.

LEVINE:

They call it extension, something like that. Extension courses.

HOGLIND:

Yeah, it could be something on that order. And something in America came from that, these folk high schools they call them.

LEVINE:

Oh. Folk high schools.

HOGLIND:

Yeah, that's what, the folk high school. Now, that's what she did, and she worked in a nursery, in a greenery house, besides learning how to cook. And it didn't matter how rich or poor you were, I guess. Because even the rich would send their daughters out to learn how to keep house. And I was supposed to go back when I was sixteen to learn how to keep house. ( she laughs ) Didn't happen. But . . .

LEVINE:

Do you remember any dishes that your mother made that were particularly Danish?

HOGLIND:

Well, we had olebord, and we had, what's that red stuff?

LEVINE:

Cabbage?

HOGLIND:

No, yeah, red cabbage, of course. But you make it out of strawberry, and you make it out of strawberries, and you make it out of, uh . . .

LEVINE:

Rhubarb?

HOGLIND:

Rhubarbs.

LEVINE:

Oh, rhubarbs?

HOGLIND:

(?), and (Danish). What's strawberry? What's strawberries?

ASTA:

Strawberries. (Danish)

HOGLIND:

(Danish) They had all these good-tasting things. It's like Danish desert. Yeah. Danish deserts. You put milk on top of it. And then we would have velling. That's a . . .

ASTA:

Gruel, like.

HOGLIND:

Gruel. And then olebord. And then Christmas time we would have, I don't remember ever having geese, goose, or red cabbage, brown potatoes with sugar on them, you know, your candied sweet, candied white potatoes. They were lovely. Now, in Denmark we didn't, I can't remember much, oh, yeah. We got sugar sandwiches. No wonder I have rotten teeth, or I had. Because at recess we would go home in the middle of the morning and we would get a piece of pumpernickel with sugar on it. That was our sweets. Great for the teeth. ( she laughs ) Now, as far as candy, I don't remember if we ever got anything.

ASTA:

At Christmas time.

HOGLIND:

Christmas we had an ice cream cone. I guess it was about two inches long, three inches long. That was the only ice cream cone we got, with ice cream on top. With ice cream, of course, it was a cone. That was the big thing. And at Christmas we got an orange. The night, was it "Little Christmas Eve," the 23rd, we put our shoes outside the door and they put oranges and stuff in there. I guess that's Christmas morning, Christmas Eve morning. And I remember in our house I don't remember the presents because I don't think we got very many, but they hid them. So we ran around looking for that. That's all I can recall because I don't even recall ever having a doll in Denmark. I must have had something to play with, but I don't recall any. And I'm very surprised because my grandfather wasn't poor, really, I don't think. But I can remember sitting under this, it was a great, big house, like I told you. It, in this basement we did the laundry, and they had a roller, a dryer. You know, when the sheets come off the line they put it on this machine and it rolls, like it's here. And it rolls one end, my mother would stand turning a lever, a lever. And I would hold it on the other side and she'd turn, this is how they'd iron the sheets. Or else we would hold each end and go like that. That's where we did the laundry. And we went from the kitchen there were stairs, there was a big trap door we went down, and of course we had a big pantry upstairs in the kitchen. And in the kitchen, it was quite large, we'd stand there. My mother would pick off the lice. ( she laughs ) We would, they'd used to have an old chicken house in the back. Of course, we would get into that. And they had a nice garden in back. Not too big, with lots of berries, and we would pick berries, and I used to play back there in the front. There was a big fence around it. No, it wasn't a big fence. It was, you know, a small fence. It was a big white, white and red house. It did not have, it had brick tiles on the roof. And the top floor was a, was the attic. We had two rooms up there and then a great, big empty room. No, there was another room there that was closed which, the witches lived in that room, too. There was stored furniture but, "Don't touch it. The witches are in there and they're going to get you." My mother slept up there. We slept downstairs in the big bedroom, and my grandfather slept downstairs in another little room. We had a big, I thought it was big, it isn't that big any more, dining room, like. And then there was the red room where you went when you had company, I guess. All red velvet, and an enormous mirror ( a clock chimes ) that went from the ceiling, it was done in mahogany. Oh, it was beautiful. And then from that room came the porch, which was filled with flowers. There was plants all over.

ASTA:

Plants.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. It was all in glass, most of it. And she had all her plants out there. It was a lovely house. I really, I loved it. And they'd when they'd, one of my uncles took it over when my grandfather died, and then he sold it to these people, some other people. And when I went, the furniture in the red room is still there. Of course, it's much smaller than I thought it was, but . . .

LEVINE:

What occasions would the red room be used for?

HOGLIND:

Well, weddings, funerals, and that's about it. Of course, you don't go in there very often. I mean, you were supposed to stay out of that part. That was the good room, you know. It was nice. And we had it pretty good, we had something in Denmark in that town called fastelavn, was it fastelavn? They used to rise on horses? Now, see, it used to happen all in one year, so this we got there, my father came here in March, February or March, so we went through the winter, part of the winter, the summer, adn then the following winter at that house. So we got all the holidays in there. We got fastelavn.

LEVINE:

How do you spell that, fastelavn?

HOGLIND:

F-A-S-T-E, faste, L-A-V-N, or W-N. Fastelavn?

ASTA:

Yeah, I think it might be with a V. I'm not too sure.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. I think so. Fastelavn.

LEVINE:

And what was that holiday about?

HOGLIND:

It's, uh, let's see, what is this holiday? This is, it's after the, isn't it around harvest time?

ASTA:

No. Fastelavn is, um . . .

HOGLIND:

It's in the fall.

ASTA:

No. Fastelavn is in the early part of the year. They . . .

HOGLIND:

Maybe it is, maybe it's Easter, around Easter, before Lent?

ASTA:

Before Lent, yeah.

HOGLIND:

Oh, yeah. And then in the fall they have, where they burn the thing on the beaches.

ASTA:

Yeah.

HOGLIND:

What the heck they call that? I can't remember. I thought it would come to me, maybe. ( the microphone is disturbed ) Yeah, all right. So it's fastelavn, it's around Easter time, maybe it's a week or two before Easter. And in our town they all get on their horses, all the men, and then they have a ring strung from the trees, and the men compete against each other, throwing a staff through this ring. And then whoever wins becomes, they have a king and a queen. I guess the king, whoever wins the contest, he becomes the king and he chooses a queen. They have a big ball, a big party at night. And during the day they have guy running around like a clown, putting, like, stuff on the kids' faces. And that was very exciting. And then at night they have the ball, and we were chosen to, they chose a couple of kids to walk around with a little, well, it was a little wagon, had little things you pinned on, roses, I guess. You pinned on the people. I don't know what it was we pinned on them, but we went to the ball.

LEVINE:

Is there some historic significance to why, you know, why they were throwing the staff through that ring, or anything like that?

HOGLIND:

I don't know enough about this holiday. You know, I have to read up on fastelavn because . . .

ASTA:

Fastelavn. Well . . . Well, you'd better continue and I'll mention it after.

HOGLIND:

You think, ( the microphone is disturbed ) Because they have another custom in the fall. Now, up in Copenhagen they burn fires all along the shoreline. Is that burning the witches?

ASTA:

Of course they . . .

HOGLIND:

It's like a hallow, well, I can't remember that, see, because we didn't do that. So there must be a significance of that, but I don't know what it is. See, from Denmark, oh, yeah, then my favorite story. Of course, that's what's going to be the title of my book when I write it. ( they laugh ) When we left, my brother, my little brother, Hans. He was so cute. (?), that big, beautiful blue eyes with these long lashes. I didn't get them. I didn't get them. But my brothers got them, especially Hans. They were always calling me down to the schoolroom. "See her lashes? Her brother had such nice long lashes." ( Dr. Levine laughs ) But he did have big, blue eyes and he, my grandfather standing there crying saying goodbye to us. We were evidently getting on the bus. And my little brother, I don't remember this, this I have been told, he looks up at my grandfather and says, "(Danish)" "You mustn't cry, Grandpa. I'll be back in twenty years." ( they laugh ) You know how kids. But it sounds, "(Danish)." And I always thought that was so sad, the poor kid. He did get back. And the funny part, when he did get back, his wife said he could hardly wait to get out. He lived around us in a hotel. He could hardly wait to get out of the hotel, and he hot-footed it off then into the town all by himself. And I can understand that, yeah.

LEVINE:

So, okay. So your father went first.

HOGLIND:

Right.

LEVINE:

And then you stayed, he was sending money.

HOGLIND:

Yeah, right, to my mother. We could come over here and he worked with my uncle Chris over here in America for a while. I think they're in Chicago. And then he said, he was an electrician.

LEVINE:

He was an electrician over there, and also . . .

HOGLIND:

Yeah. And . . .

LEVINE:

So, okay. So then he sent . . .

HOGLIND:

He sent money, so he came. And we went, I can't remember anything specific about Denmark except that.

LEVINE:

Do you remember anything that you brought or your mother packed?

HOGLIND:

I guess she took the big . . .

ASTA:

The big feather . . .

HOGLIND:

The comforters.

ASTA:

Yeah. We had ours.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. I'm sure she took them, because we always sleep with them, and I still sleep with that. Not the same kind, of course, because they were heavy. When I'm sick I could see these (Danish) pressing in on me, because you had them underneath and on top. And, believe me, but they're warm, through the feathers. I can't remember. Oh, the only other thing I can remember about Denmark, every day at four o'clock or so my mother would go one way and I would go another way to meet my aunt. She lived in this farmhouse. My grandfather's ex-farm. And we would meet, and we would take a long walk on the highway to the town. And I missed him. The last fork before we left for there I missed it. END OF SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

HOGLIND:

Breaks my heart. But I guess I felt pretty good. I was the only one with my mother at that time, and the three of us would walk along. And then I missed it. But that was my favorite aunt, my moster. We were . . .

LEVINE:

This was your mother's sister.

HOGLIND:

Yeah.

ASTA:

(?) muster.

HOGLIND:

And, now, I have two others that we called moster, but this was the moster.

LEVINE:

M-U-S-T-A?

HOGLIND:

M-O-S-T-E-R. Mother's sister, I guess.

ASTA:

Yeah, it is, yeah.

HOGLIND:

But the others were not as close. This was the favorite, like you had the mau-mau.

ASTA:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

What was your aunt's name?

HOGLIND:

Petrea.

LEVINE:

B-E . . .

HOGLIND:

No. P, P-E-T-R-E-A. Petrea.

ASTA:

That was her last name?

HOGLIND:

No. Petrea Broch. Her last name, her first name was Petrea, and her last name was Broch. B-R-O-C-H. You know. Her husband was the big farmer, the big farmer. And then I had two others.

LEVINE:

Do you remember saying goodbye to your favorite aunt?

HOGLIND:

No, I don't remember that at all. I don't even remember getting on the bus. The only one I remember saying goodbye to was the baker. I, when I come from school there was a little road just up the hill, and there was a window, and I used to peek into this window. And in, it went down, like, because it was on a slant. And the bakery was down below, like, and this window was high up in the ceiling. And I would peek in this window and say hello to the baker. And I can remember just sticking my head in or saying, I don't even know if I said goodbye, but him I remember. I don't remember anybody else I said goodbye to. ( she laughs ) It's funny how things stick in your mind, isn't it?

LEVINE:

It really is.

ASTA:

Yeah, yeah.

LEVINE:

Do you remember what ship you took?

HOGLIND:

Yeah, I took the Hellig Olav. H-E-L-L-I-G O-L-A-F. No, O-L-A-V, Olav. And it's helli, Hellig Olaf. And we came third class.

LEVINE:

And you came from Copenhagen?

HOGLIND:

Yeah. I remember. I think, I think we must have gone on a ride there because I can remember sliding down some slide, you know. But that's vague, very vague.

LEVINE:

Was that your first time in Copenhagen?

HOGLIND:

As far as I know. Yeah. I think so. Because I was so young, we didn't go anywhere. And we all had one cabin. We did have a porthole, and we were all seasick, of course. But it was on a Sunday, we were seasick. But they were going to give ice cream and an orange, so of course we weren't seasick any more. ( she laughs ) We got ours. And I can only remember a storm, that we sat on these seats, they slide. You know, the cushions would slide. That's all I can remember. And then we came to America. I can't remember a thing!

LEVINE:

You can't remember coming into the Harbor?

HOGLIND:

Not a thing.

LEVINE:

Ellis Island, or the Statue of Liberty?

HOGLIND:

No. I can't remember.

ASTA:

You probably didn't go to Ellis Island, did you?

HOGLIND:

I don't know. I have no idea. Except that you say we must have, but I don't know, and this is what I'm trying to find out, if that ship, what year did they stop going?

LEVINE:

I can maybe look into that for you.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. I really would love, because, well, anyway, I have a reason for wanting my name in there, see. If I did go, because our names never, except Doris' here.

LEVINE:

Well, you know, are you talking about the name on the wall? That's meant for any immigrant, not necessarily through Ellis Island.

HOGLIND:

Is that right?

LEVINE:

Although it's physically located there. The museum is intended to be an immigration museum to honor all people who came to this country, not necessarily through Ellis Island.

HOGLIND:

Because I have a . . .

ASTA:

My nephew paid two hundred dollars for my mother's name on that wall. I'm not on it. You have to go and petition for that.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. I don't know how many, how much it would cost to have everybody's name on there.

LEVINE:

We can talk about that later. I can tell you more about it. But why don't we, do you remember your first few days in this country?

HOGLIND:

The only thing, I can remember someone telling me, or I said, "Did they have a fire?" I asked my father that. Because the streets were, the houses were flat, flat roofs. And in Denmark the only roofs I'd ever seen were slanted, you know. So I couldn't understand that. That's my only impression. We went to Jersey City. We stayed with my aunt and uncle. My uncle was my mother's brother, and I didn't go to school right away because for some reason the school year, I had to wait about six months. I think my older brother went to, Knute went to school. But Hans and I, we stayed because of the year. So we were behind about a half a year. And, but we skipped, we skipped a lot. We skipped all the A's. It was like 1-A, 2-A. So we went to summer school and we skipped all the A's. Like I went to 1-B, 2-B but I skipped 1-A and 2-A. Till I got up to the right class of my age group. And then we went on from there. But . . .

LEVINE:

Now, do you remember learning English? Do you remember any experiences?

HOGLIND:

No. The only thing I can remember standing in the class with my head bowed. So I guess I couldn't understand English, but I have no idea of, that's why I can never understand this when they want bilingual teachers, you know, because we always spoke English, I guess. I mean, I can't remember that there was a difficulty for me, but it isn't difficult for children. They, maybe they learn better. I don't' know. We didn't, we had no problem, I guess.

LEVINE:

Were there other children from Denmark around where you were when you first came here?

HOGLIND:

Not that I remember in Jersey. We only had, and they were babies. My aunt's children were babies. They didn't go to church, of course. And there was my friends of the family. They were Danish. That was all our only contact with any Danes. My mother and father, they were janitors, or should we call them superintendents? They were janitors in these various houses. And then we moved to Brooklyn because my aunt, my mother had an aunt in Canada who had gone to Canada with her husband. They opened a rooming house to begin with. So my mother, because my mother was the ambitious one. I think my father would have stayed in Denmark, but my mother, I guess she wanted to go and see the world. So we opened a, they opened a rooming house. That wasn't what it was.

LEVINE:

It was, probably, wasn't it?

HOGLIND:

What do they call, what's another word for rooming house?

LEVINE:

Boarding house?

HOGLIND:

No. Well, I guess it was a rooming house in Brooklyn. It was terrible.

ASTA:

They rented out rooms.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. We had about eight rooms upstairs. I hated that. I hated it from the day I saw it. And my mother died there. I was twelve. She was thirty-eight. It was too bad, because she came, it was sort of, to me, it was ugly.

LEVINE:

And was she happy she had come?

HOGLIND:

I don't know. I don't remember ever hearing any, in Jersey it wasn't so bad. We lived pretty nicely in Jersey. And we had a good time, like New Year's Eve we had these Danish friends, and my father would make lurk in the kitchen. They would make this Swedish drink which is made of rum and all kinds of liquor and cherries. It's a very hot Swedish. And they would have a good time, all the men. And my mother, and they had other friends that were Danish. I can't, she was a very happy-go-lucky person so I can't remember being unhappy. Even the one letter I have didn't sound unhappy. Then she became ill and that was it. But I should think of all the beauty of Denmark and then this, I can't see it. But, you see, I'm, maybe it wasn't bad, as long as she was with my father. I don't know. But he would never move out of that neighborhood, much as I wanted to.

LEVINE:

In Brooklyn.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. I couldn't keep, I had to keep house. From school, I was going around my school, I thought I have to go home and then clean house and wash dishes. I hated every minute.

LEVINE:

This was . . .

HOGLIND:

Yes. My mother died.

LEVINE:

In the rooming house.

HOGLIND:

After about six months. But I couldn't keep it up. And then we moved to a nice place, a nice apartment building. And then came the Depression. No jobs. We were moved to these, what do you call flats?

LEVINE:

Tenements?

HOGLIND:

What do you call these flats? One, these long flats with . . .

ASTA:

What do they call them?

LEVINE:

It's not a . . .

HOGLIND:

Railroad flats.

LEVINE:

That's right.

HOGLIND:

The elevated was in front of the, this is not the nicest part of my life. ( she laughs ) In the front part of our living room, and in the back there was about two feet of brick wall from the kitchen, and the kitchen had a wooden stove, I mean a stove and an icebox. And the water was always falling all over the floor. And then we had a beautiful Italian ice man because I lived in an Italian neighborhood. I didn't live in the, in the Scandinavian neighborhood. He'd bring us wine for Christmas and, with the ice, because he was an ice man he'd bring us wine every Christmas. And, which it would teach me how to cook. He'd tell me what (?), I'd ask something. But I was a better cook at twelve than I am now, I can tell you. My, because I still remember my mother.

LEVINE:

So you became sort of the mother of the house.

HOGLIND:

Well, I had to keep house. Most Danish girls keep house, and you stay home. I object, then this lady, Hansen, who was a friend of the family, came once a week to teach me how to cook. I resented it deeply, believe me. I watched the other ones play. I didn't have it so bad. It sounds like it was bad. Of course, we had a lot of fun. I mean, I'd . . .

LEVINE:

What did you do for fun?

HOGLIND:

Well, we did the folk dancing. And if I didn't have that, we went to the church, my church. And I started dancing at sixteen, and then all the other kids came and we danced in Hartford and we danced in Bridgeport and we danced in the big restaurants in New York with the folk dance group. And, of course, there was the church group, there was the Young People's Society. And they went to these different affairs, different churches, with lots of boys. That's why we went. ( she laughs ) You don't think we were, we didn't care so much for the church, believe me. The pastor used to have to come down, I hate to say it. On church night, I mean, on Young People's Night, and get them out of the, the boys out of the bar. Oh, he was such a lovely man, Pastor Dau. And I remember him so well because he was the only one that always used to pat me on the head. Oh, poor little Martha. You're such a nice little girl keeping house for my father. I hated them, because I didn't know what to say. He was the only one that treated me like a normal human being. He never said, "Sorry," or patted me on the head. He was so nice to me. He had a long beard. I mean, not a long beard. He had a Van Dyke beard. And he was very proud, a white collar, a Danish collar. I liked Pastor Dau. He was my favorite pastor, because he treated me like nothing had happened. See, the others were always that, "You're such a good, big girl." And, you know, kids don't know how to answer. It's so embarrassing. And besides, I think that I resented every minute of it. ( she laughs ) I didn't like keeping house. And I guess I felt like saying, "Yes, I am a big." But I didn't feel like it. And that was, that was the years to high school.

LEVINE:

So when the Depression came did you, did you get a job?

HOGLIND:

No. I went to, well, no. My first job, I went to grammar school.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

HOGLIND:

I went to grammar school. I graduated from high school in 1934. I should have gone to college. Of course, that wasn't a bad time, but I, boy, I was so shy, I was so happy to get out. And then I was going to keep house, and most of the times I kept house. Once in a while I'd take a little job, but when I kept house the boys paid me, see. ( she laughs ) And, believe me, I worked for those few dollars. "Get me this," and, "Get me that." But I always had money to go to the movies, because I kept track of the money, see, household money. If they didn't like the rice I gave them for dinner they'd go down the street. ( she laughs ) But . . .

LEVINE:

So your brothers were living at home.

HOGLIND:

Yeah, and my father. Up till, now, for fun we had the folk dance group, and every weekend we would go out to this lakehouse in Lake Ronkonkoma. There are so many people.

LEVINE:

Lake Ronkonkoma.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. That's where we went. And we had this big lake house, and of course that was all the young people, all these boys, all these girls. We had a lot of fun, believe me. And we, the boys made kayaks and they, we sailed around the lake and we danced at every pavilion, folk dancing, the whole group. We had a good time, see. So compared to the home life, or the surroundings, which were so bad, at least to me, ugly. I was a big snob. It wasn't so bad.

LEVINE:

Did, what did you do for music for the folk dancing?

HOGLIND:

We have a, oh, we have the Testa, no, not Testa. Mr. Hansen, he had a . . .

LEVINE:

Concertina?

HOGLIND:

Yeah . . .

LEVINE:

Accordion?

ASTA:

He had a fiddle.

HOGLIND:

Did he have a fiddle?

ASTA:

Well, sure he did.

HOGLIND:

Well, who had the . . .

ASTA:

Accordion that was one of the . . .

HOGLIND:

Was that the other guy? Hansen had a fiddle. That's right. I don't know why I can't remember this. It must have been one of the dancers. Because, that's right, he did, he played the fiddle. And when I first went there was just another girl and I. We were about the youngest. So, boy, we learned our folk dancing because they were older. Until the other people came from the other churches and all. And we used to go, it was very nice going to the parties because we danced with the Poles. They'd have a big hall. We'd go to those. We'd go to, there was a big place in New York. What's that big place we danced, up on 86th Street?

LEVINE:

German?

HOGLIND:

German Hall. But we danced folk dancing. We performed. And then there was, all different groups had, the Danes and Swedes would all get together. And if you didn't have a date, you could go, because there was all mothers and father going, so you could always go and sit with them. And, of course, at that time we didn't date so much. So, and I didn't have, my father didn't go, so I would sit with the different ones. It was marvelous. They had Finn Hall. Oh, and then there was Finn Hall. Now, that was risque. I mean, it wasn't risque, but it, Mr. Hansen didn't like us dancing Finn Hall style because he was a little more modern and we danced the polka. ( she laughs ) It cost twenty cents to come in, and there was all the sailors from different Scandinavians in there. My brothers used to ask me, "Can this guy speak English, Martha?" Because I had a fondness for foreign sailors. But that, we had a lot of fun there, because you could go, for twenty cents, on a Saturday night, and dance.

LEVINE:

Where was that?

HOGLIND:

At Finn Hall. It was out in . . .

ASTA:

Bay Ridge.

HOGLIND:

Bay Ridge, where all the Scandinavians were. And, of course, then there's the Danish Athletic Club. We didn't come there too much. There was another place. We had plenty of places to go.

LEVINE:

What was the attitude about, like, young people and dating? Was it, like, really strict among the Danes, or not so strict?

HOGLIND:

I don't think so. My father wasn't strict, particularly. I didn't think that much but, I mean, they weren't bad. The Italians were strict. So they would, since I was alone I got along fine with the mothers because I could talk about their household stuff. ( she laughs ) "Oh, you can go to Martha's house." You know. I had a Greek girlfriend. She wasn't allowed to go out. And, you know, they could not meet outside, so they'd come over, say, "I'm going over to Martha's." Then they would take off. I didn't go. I stayed home. But it was sad. My father wasn't strict, because the boys, my brothers were there. And I never had any, well, we didn't go out, not in my house, anyway, during the week, because we had three hours homework to do at night. By the time you go home and wash dishes, straighten the house, do your homework. We went out Friday or Saturday night. Oh, Monday night we went out dancing. And my father wasn't as strict. He got stricter later on, but not at that time. Because the boys, we always went different places with him. Not, and then once in a while we'd go to the Italian club with those beautiful Italians, dark-haired. That was a big, daring thing. Because each ethnic group had their own clubs, you know.

LEVINE:

So it was daring to go.

HOGLIND:

Oh, yeah, because most blondes, you know, we loved these dark-haired men. And to go to an Italian club, we had one down the street that once in a while I'd make Italian girls take me. But that, not very often. I never dated, I only dated one Italian boy.

LEVINE:

So, in other words, dancing was a big thing in all the different ethnic groups that you were around.

HOGLIND:

I think so, because they all had their little group, their little . . .

ASTA:

They picked their own dancers.

HOGLIND:

And, now, like, there was, that big place we danced up in New York, 86th Street.

ASTA:

What was the name of that?

HOGLIND:

Yorkville Casino.

LEVINE:

Oh, Yorkville, yeah. Yorkville, uh-huh.

HOGLIND:

Then there was this Polish group. We'd go to their dances. I can't remember the Italians having any big hall particularly. I belonged to an Italian club once, no, an international club in New York once. But I don't remember that so much. We didn't, we didn't know so much.

LEVINE:

How about American music? Were you interested in that, or not particularly?

HOGLIND:

We didn't have, we didn't have it, really.

LEVINE:

It's probably not till the forties.

HOGLIND:

I remember the . . .

LEVINE:

The swing and all that?

HOGLIND:

Oh, well, now, wait a minute. When I got older I'd go to a dance hall in New York, one of these big dance halls. What do they call them, danceland? And that was also, that was unusual for me to go. I had started working, then, but once in a while . . .

LEVINE:

Like The Roseland? Was that one, The Roseland?

HOGLIND:

Yeah, Roseland. Wasn't there something called Roseland? The big bands. Then they ask you where you lived, and I lived in Brooklyn. ( she laughs ) You don't' think anybody's going to take me to Brooklyn.

LEVINE:

So that was later. That was after your teens?

HOGLIND:

Yeah, that was in the late teens. I think I was working by then, because I don't remember, most of our dancing was folk dancing. And sometimes we'd go to the, no, that was also later, because you wouldn't go to bars, well, I was sixteen when I folk danced, so there's only those couple of years in there before you started going to the bars to dance out in Bay Ridge. With your boyfriends you danced regular dancing. We danced all the soft music, you know. ( she sings ) "Serenade in the night." Oh, I remember that one so well. Yeah. Or, "The night was young, and you're so beautiful." We danced regular foxtrot. That wasn't too bad, either.

LEVINE:

Do you remember any Danish songs?

HOGLIND:

I'm not very musical. My mother was, but I, I'd sing them, Thirty Danish Ditties at home. ( she laughs ) Like Victor Borga. He always plays that one. ( she sings ) "Da, da, da, da, da." That means, "Mother, I gotta go." ( they laugh ) We laughed at that. And my mother, I have my mother's song. ( a clock chimes ) But I know a lot of Danish songs. I don't sing them in tune, though.

LEVINE:

Because I was going to ask you if you wanted to sing them . . .

HOGLIND:

Not me. I can't sing. Asta can sing. She's sitting quiet. But I've always been told, "Don't sing." What song do you know?

LEVINE:

Do you want to sing just a part of it?

ASTA:

No. I don't think I do. ( she laughs )

HOGLIND:

(Danish) ( they laugh )

LEVINE:

Well . . .

ASTA:

I know a line here and there of the Danish songs.

LEVINE:

Yeah. Well, um, what does it mean to you to have come to this country?

HOGLIND:

Well, see, I'm very patriotic. I'm very happy because, first of all, my two brothers, Knute went in the service. My kid brother went in the service. He was a marine, Hans. Knute was in the army. And then he worked civilian life for the navy. For many years he couldn't go into the service because they were, they kept him home to work on these, where was he, the bikini island when they shot off the bomb, and he was on an experimental ship. He was always working for the government. Hans was a marine. So, what they can do I can do. But unfortunately I got talked out of joining the navy. I couldn't find the recruiting office when I first came out, so I worked for defense. They said, "Only bad girls join the army." ( she laughs ) I could kill them. So I joined, I went and worked for Defense during the war. And then when I, the first chance I got, then I became, after the war, after, I worked for the Swedish consulate as a switchboard operator. I also worked in department stores and stuff. I worked for the World's Fair. That was my first job, 1938. And then I became a secretary, sort of. And after Swedish consulate I went to Osalid. And then I was trying to get away from home. But now I'm taking care of my father. He's sick, and I desperately tried to get away. Nobody was giving me a good offer to get married either. Because I knew all these boys that I'd grown up with, but I didn't want to marry them. But one day I saw in the paper, "Secretary," well, "Typist wanted, overseas." So I went and took a test, and I flunked the shorthand test. I went to, I went as far away as I could. My father was well at this time. One time I had quit but he got sick again, so, but now he was well. I took the test, and I became a CS-2. I went to Japan. As far away from Brooklyn as I could get. And so I'm brainwashed. I stayed with the government for overseas, most about twelve years and then eight, no, ten years, in the States on and off. So I'm very patriotic. Brainwashed, of course, but nonetheless. I'm also very Danish. I can't make up my mind. But if we hadn't come here, we wouldn't have been American. And I became less, I think, I hope, less prejudiced by joining this government, you know, overseas. And what an opportunity. You could go overseas. See, nobody told me I would be able to do that later on, take a trip or something, you know. I had the one trip, but that way I could go to Denmark.

LEVINE:

Oh, you went to Denmark when you were in the service?

HOGLIND:

Yeah. I worked there three years, I worked in France and Germany. So that was nice. Oh, and I went to Denmark in, my father paid my way in 1940, right after the war. That was my first trip away from home. That was nice. That was very exciting, one of my best summers. Of course, I have a big family in Denmark. They're all over, all spread out in Juttland. There's so many relatives all over. They have pretty good, as far as getting away from here, and they couldn't see it, that if I'd gotten married I couldn't see, well, I was always trying. I was always looking.

LEVINE:

So you might not have traveled as much.

HOGLIND:

No. But nobody said, I always thought, "Gee, all my life is going to be going to the nearest bar around the corner." And I always wanted something different. Well, I got that. I didn't come much further, but I had a pretty good life, pretty good considering. It's like a crossroads you come to when you go there. And my brother, I have a brother, well, he died, but he's in, he was in California. I have a sister-in-law out there, and three children. And Eileen, I mean, Asta, and her daughter is a scientist up in, what is it?

ASTA:

Rochester.

HOGLIND:

Rochester. So we did pretty well.

LEVINE:

Yeah.

HOGLIND:

Considering that my mother didn't get much out of America. And my father didn't go back until '49. Then they accepted him in Denmark. ( she laughs ) Because he was a Swede, but now he's also an American.

LEVINE:

So he went back to Denmark or . . .

HOGLIND:

Yeah. And then he went to Sweden. I don't know too much about my Swedish relations. I've been up there. I don't speak Swedish.

ASTA:

I met a few of them.

HOGLIND:

Yeah. And I met my uncle, my father's brother. The only reason I got along with him, or understood him, is because he spoke Norwegian to me, a tall man. He'd been in the Army, of course. I didn't talk too much about it, but he was very nice. And he spoke Norwegian. And he showed me where my father had lived in a little, tiny town. I think my father left real early. I mean, he was apprenticed at thirteen, and I think he left very early. He had an uncle that got him out of Denmark, out of Sweden, so I think he left home very early, as far as I know.

LEVINE:

Why did your father want to go back, do you know?

HOGLIND:

Well, he hadn't been back in all those years.

LEVINE:

So did he stay there?

HOGLIND:

Where?

LEVINE:

Oh, he came back here.

HOGLIND:

Oh, yeah. This was just a trip. He couldn't go back to Sweden for twenty years or they'd put him in the army, and he couldn't afford it before, after the war, because things were better then and he had retired. He was feeling pretty good.

LEVINE:

I think we have to stop here because the tape is just, running out. ( Mrs. Hoglind laughs ) And I want to thank you very much.

HOGLIND:

Oh, you're welcome.

LEVINE:

This is Janet Levine for the National Park Service. I've been talking with Martha Hoglind who came from Denmark, and this is April 17th, 1993, and I'm signing off.