LEVINE:

This is Janet Levine for the National Park Service. It's April 28, 1993, and I'm here in North Miami Beach with Morris, called Murray, Chernikoff, who came from Russia at the age of fourteen in 1924. Okay. I'm very happy to be here. I look forward to hearing everything you have to tell.

CHERNIKOFF:

My pleasure, my pleasure. Very nice.

LEVINE:

So let's start at the beginning. You give your birth date.

CHERNIKOFF:

My birth date is September the 20th, 1909.

LEVINE:

Okay. And where were you born in Russia?

CHERNIKOFF:

I was born in Russia at the city of Odessa. That's a Black Sea space port, you know, the beautiful city of Odessa.

LEVINE:

Were you living in Odessa the entire time?

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah, before I left, sure. I was born there and I left, till I left for this country.

LEVINE:

Wonderful. Well, tell me, could you describe Odessa?

CHERNIKOFF:

Oh, Odessa was known, whoever, from the towns, from smaller towns, from different villages, came to Odessa. In those days, Odessa was like Paris or London or New York. That was the life there. They used to say, there was a way it was said, "If you've never went to Odessa, you've never seen anything nice and beautiful in life." That's what Odessa is known, you see? But I was born there, and we went through, at that time, we had the Revolution, we had a hunger. First we had the Revolution, you know, come in, and a lot of people got killed. A lot of people, there wasn't any, the Revolution, you know, scarce of food. Then we had a, what do you call, we had a scarce of food. There was no, the fields were dry.

LEVINE:

Drought.

CHERNIKOFF:

The drought. They were not producing, so a lot of people died. Wintertime, the people, whoever lived like, never to eat or something, and didn't know where to sleep. There was a fellow asleep, and they were frozen up. It was a terrific thing. Then the Revolution, it was during the time, the Revolution. It was bad. Things were not the right way, but we survived. The Germans were just, it was just before the Germans left, you know. And they killed plenty of people at that time, but you didn't know about those things, you see what I mean, because that was, we didn't have the kind of the news that we had today with everything.

LEVINE:

Do you remember firsthand, do you remember people dying of starvation?

CHERNIKOFF:

Oh, of course! At that time it was the hunger in Russia, in 1920 and 1919, you know. It was very bad, '21. I remember we went down to, we have the sea, you know, because all the ship come in. We went down to, we didn't have no money, there was scarce of food. We went to the beach. We have an area where they have salt, you see? So we went to, to get the salt. And the police were shooting at us. You know what I mean? We weren't allowed to get the salt, and that salt, that was a time when the people from the city took salt and tried to get on trains. You see, they were going out to the villages and change it for bread. A lot of people were hanging on the buffers and on the, you know, on the roofs of, you know, the trains.

LEVINE:

The train cars.

CHERNIKOFF:

And they, they were frozen, they died, they fell off. You know what I mean? It was a terrific thing that time, you know what I mean? A lot of, went through those days.

ROSE HALPERN:

And your father left when you were a young guy, you were a young kid.

CHERNIKOFF:

My father left when I was two years old.

LEVINE:

What was your father's name?

CHERNIKOFF:

My father was named, would be Isadore, Izzy. Whatever they call him, Izzy here. You know. He left in 1911. He came to this country. I had my uncles here, so they took him out. I had two uncles here and two aunts, my mother's. You see, they couldn't take my mother out at that time. You know, she was pregnant with my daughter, I mean with my sister, excuse me. So she couldn't leave at that time, and I had to wait till 1924. We were actually, I'll tell you. ( the sound of an airplane passing overhead is heard ) Then my sister, from, when we left Odessa going to, uh, we had to go to get a visa, so we had to stop, we stopped in Moscow. In Moscow, there was one of the companies. This was the, what do you call it? We left, from Moscow we went to Riga, Latvia. There was had to wait, me and my sister, we had to wait, we waited two months. Then she got sick, got appendix, and within a few days she died. So I remained by myself and waited another two months. And then we left for Bremerhaven, Germany, where the ships were leaving. See, ships used to leave from Germany, from Bremerhaven and from Hamburg, but we were on that.

LEVINE:

Okay. Well, getting back to Russia before you left. It was your mother, your sister and you who were in your family.

CHERNIKOFF:

No, it was my grandmother there, my grandfather, yeah. You know, there still some, the family was there, you know, but they didn't, they weren't, you know, at that time they didn't take anything. They just was taking mostly the children, you know what I mean? They go to the father and so on. You see?

LEVINE:

Now, what was your grandparent, what were your grandparents' names?

CHERNIKOFF:

My grandma was Weiner.

LEVINE:

Rena?

CHERNIKOFF:

Weiner, Weiner. W-E-I-N-E-R.

LEVINE:

And that was your mother's maiden name?

CHERNIKOFF:

My mother's maiden name, yeah, was Weiner, you see.

LEVINE:

And your mother's first name?

CHERNIKOFF:

Was Sarah.

LEVINE:

Sarah. And your sister who died with the appendix?

CHERNIKOFF:

Was Rose.

LEVINE:

Rosalyn?

CHERNIKOFF:

Rose.

LEVINE:

Rose. And so did you actually live with your grandparents?

CHERNIKOFF:

Yes, yes. We lived together. In those days usually the children of the father and mother of the parents, you know, used to live together, especially when they were, you know, without the husband, the mother.

ROSE HALPERN:

Your mother died.

CHERNIKOFF:

So then we lived there.

LEVINE:

Tell me, like, can you describe the house?

CHERNIKOFF:

Oh, the house, the house was like a basement, walking in I went, I still got the scar here go, that when I was a kid, you know, you used to go up and go right down the cover down, twenty feet down, you see? It wasn't a fancy place at that time, but you lived. Because my grandmother, my grandfather was working, and he was one of those people, the workers, that they used to, like, hire when the wagon, when the train will come in and deliver the wheat. So they would come, you know what I mean, and get the wheat out, you know. So he was that. And it was a tough time they were going through.

LEVINE:

What did your father do before he left for America?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, he worked, I think he worked on the, what's the name, on one of the sugar factories, you know? We had a big sugar factory in Odessa. So he worked there, but I didn't know too much about my father, because I was a kid. And he left me two years old, and I didn't know too much.

LEVINE:

Did you go to school?

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah, I went there to school, you know, by the time I was there. See, and then the Revolution, so you didn't go to school.

LEVINE:

I see. So you didn't have the chance to go to school very long.

CHERNIKOFF:

No, no. You didn't, because all that was just the Germans left and so on. Then they had a big explosion down there in our area where we lived, and we had to run away from the city, because we were in back of the city. So we had to run away, that was the front of the city, we couldn't tell, you know. So we had to run for miles in order to get away, because it was, if you seen the explosions here, how the fire, and when whatever gets it follows you up, and this was a big factory of ammunition, you see, and that exploded. And when we went three days later, we came back, we found nothing. We only found shells, everything, you know what I mean, nothing. In our place we found nothing. Everything was gone. You see what I mean? So then we had to move to the city. We had an aunt of my grandmother's brother, he lived in the city, you know.

LEVINE:

Odessa.

CHERNIKOFF:

Yes. So we went back to the city instead of the other, but there was no place where to live. So we went to the city, we lived in the city.

LEVINE:

Were there, what was the balance between Jewish people and non-Jewish people, that you remember?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, there was the balance. There was, as far as that time, you know, after all a lot of Jewish people settled in Odessa. They couldn't settle different, you take even Kiev, the city of Kiev, when they settled, the Jewish people couldn't go, they had to go like a ghetto, and that's what they kept them. If they wanted to go to work, they had to have a permit to go to work. I don't know. Odessa, I think, was more openly, you see what I mean? But I don't, this is something, you know, that you never came. Because when I was a kid it was a different time, and I worked with a cousin of mine. He had a store, and I was helping him out. We used to go shop to the market, you know.

LEVINE:

Like an open air market?

CHERNIKOFF:

No, big. It was closed at that time. Odessa had big, beautiful stores, you know. Anything you wanted to get you could have gotten it. You still would get, and then from different places, you know. Over here, food, all kind, you know. Anything that you wanted was coming in. But this was already, but you did not allow the people. But he had a store, and I used to, we used to four o'clock get up, five o'clock in the morning, wintertime, sleep on the floor, and it's cold. And mushiks, you know, that come from the other small towns, would come in to bring their stuff to sell. And they would stop, and we were, like, in a big yard, you know, a big one. And they would come and park there, just like over here, we would park your wagons and so on, and then sell the stuff.

LEVINE:

What were you selling with your cousins?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, they were selling, we were selling whatever we had there, you know, food and so on. They were bringing in different things, like they would bring in sometimes if they had, they would have apples or peaches or whatever, they would bring in, they were selling, you know. This was all, that's how things are in the city. But it was, my mother died in 192-, between 1921 and '22. You see? I think it was, they had a sickness at that time.

ROSE HALPERN:

Typhus?

CHERNIKOFF:

Not typhus. I think . . .

LEVINE:

Typhoid fever?

CHERNIKOFF:

Different, whatever.

LEVINE:

It was an epidemic?

CHERNIKOFF:

Epidemic? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of people died at that time. I was, at that time I was sick. I couldn't bury her, so a cousin of mine buried her. So this is, so I remained there with my grandmother and stayed together with my sister till we left for this country.

LEVINE:

Now tell me . . .

CHERNIKOFF:

There were a lot of things happening during the time. During the time, I'll go back a little bit.

LEVINE:

Yes, good.

CHERNIKOFF:

During the time of the Revolution you had, you must have read, because there was a lot of breakups. A lot of them didn't want to, if you remember America tried to help some of the Russians not to have, they went and they lined up with them against the Communists. So at the time was the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks had to line up. Then there was a lot of, they call them those bandits, and they were, and they were making pogroms while they were, you know, they were taking advantage. While they came into a town. You see, when we will come and she'll tell you things, ( referring to Ms. Halpern ) she run away from the pogroms. So, you see, things wasn't so good. In my town my cousin, they were supposed to come in, come in a band, and they were going to make a little pogrom in back of the city we were. So my cousin, you know, got acquainted with the colonel there that was leading the band. So they went out with him or something, and they didn't touch us. You see what I mean? But if we go back, I remember my grandma was telling me that during the time in 1905 when there was a big, around that area there was a big pogrom, it was in the different cities, and it was towns, and Odessa had one. So my uncle, one of them already left for America. When he came to America he was found in the steerage. You see, he had to, he must have paid a few cents, and in the steerage they found him nearly dead. That's how those, they just couldn't go in and just, you know, get a passport or something and go, you know, and take you to America. This came later. But this, it happened, she said. The other uncle . . .

LEVINE:

You mean he stowed away? In steerage?

CHERNIKOFF:

Yes, yes, in steerage, coal. The coal steerage. You know, at that time they were feeding coal, the ships. So that's where they found him, down there. Well, anyway, he came to America and he, you know. But the other ones, when the pogrom was 1905, he left a little before. When the pogrom was there, so the priest stood in front of the yard, because a lot of people lived inside, and didn't let them do anything, you see? So he was hiding under the bed or something, whatever, you know. Then after my grandmother, my grandfather sent him away, got to go, and he came to America. But there's a lot of things that did really happen.

LEVINE:

Do you personally remember a pogrom that happened?

CHERNIKOFF:

No, I didn't see it. You see, in Odessa, because in Odessa we had it tough, we Jewish boys, you know what I mean? But they didn't do it in the city. You see, they did it on the outskirts so they had a chance, you know, to get in and get out. But those days, and the pogroms, what she'll come to tell you, ( referring to Ms. Halpern ) and after you'll see there's more. But then after, you know, I got permission, you know.

LEVINE:

So let me ask you first about your grandmother and your grandfather. Do you remember any things that they . . .

CHERNIKOFF:

Told me?

LEVINE:

. . . impressed upon you?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, they impressed upon me they were very much in love. We lived there, and they used to fight. And in love, but the funny thing, they used to fight like terrible. You know what I mean? And they were in love. Because, she was telling me, my grandmother, when my grandfather was in the army, this goes back, you know, because they must have been born in 1860, whatever it is, you know, way before. So there was that time, sure, the czar, and they take the people to the army. When he was in the army she learned how to write Jewish. She didn't know how to write Jewish. So she learned, she got a kid, you know, whatever down there, and learned how to write Jewish. And they, and she used to correspond with him while he was in the army. See, you couldn't, because it was, it became so confusing all the things. You couldn't find out. Till today I began to think, my uncles came here with my father, but I was a stranger to my father. I didn't stay with him long, then I was on my own because I was fourteen, fourteen years, I was a man. I worked in the glass factory to get food, you know what I mean, to eat. So there was a different situation. So when I was fourteen I was a grown, very, you know, like, you know, all those things. It was . . .

LEVINE:

Were you bar mitzvahed? Did you have that kind of thing . . .

CHERNIKOFF:

No, no! Who had a bar mitzvah? No.

LEVINE:

Were you religious at all in Russia?

CHERNIKOFF:

No, I don't remember my grandfather, if he was religious or not. Because at that time, it came in all that time, the war, you know, from 1914 and all that. And how old I was? Five years old. So you can't, this was all confusing. Even till today it bothers me why I never was sitting with my uncles. It wasn't so, to find out, to get the history, the children don't even know the history. His children, they died too, you know. But now, but the history to know what, who the hell thought of it at those times? You see, now we think about the history because it was so important to know, who was his grandma? I didn't know, one grandma this. My mother's grandfather I knew. But the other one, my father's, I didn't know. I heard about him, you know what I mean, but I didn't know, and I didn't know. Nobody, you didn't question anything. Here today, you take the children today. They know the majority about, if not the Holocaust that's created, they know. But they didn't know anything about their families at all. Nothing. You see what I mean? So how can you go out and trace anything if you don't know anything about it.

LEVINE:

Was your father's family from Odessa as well?

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah. They were all, the mostly, my father came in from a small village. When my father came in from a village in Russia, I forgot, maybe I'll think. And he was a young man, you know. He was, I think, about twenty-seven, -eight, whatever, he came into Odessa. And he never seen a train before. You see, from that village. You know what I mean? And it was something, you know, to him. When he came to Odessa that's when he started, you know, having a job. That's when he met my mother. You know, those days they had to, they had to have what's her name, like in Fiddler on the Roof, Yenta the matchmaker. And that was the Yenta. And I remember my mother cursed the hell out of her because she, you know, young you get married, after you don't care for this. She was here, he went to America. You know what I mean? So this, it was a tough life.

LEVINE:

But your grandparents, your mother's parents, was a marriage of love, it sounds like.

CHERNIKOFF:

Oh, yeah. Theirs was a marriage of love. That's the way I got it, you know, they loved each other. But actually, that's what he's told me. But this was a marriage of my mother, this was a marriage of introduction. You see what I mean?

LEVINE:

Do you remember anything else about your grandmother or grandfather? Any experiences you had with them?

CHERNIKOFF:

No. My grandfather was a hard worker. We didn't, they didn't, there was no food. You had to go down and get grass to burn in order to make something for yourself. Like if you want to have pancakes or something, so what pancakes could you have? You had the grass. When you burned the grass it was in your pancakes, there wasn't anything to it. It was a terrific thing those days. But, I mean, actually we didn't have what they had in the Holocaust, you see what I mean? Because this came later and all that stuff. But it was, a lot of things, you know, happened during that time. You know, I lost, in 19, uh, you know, while I was there, and Riga, when I came to Riga, Latvia I had to wait for the visa. So my sister received, got appendix. They were feeding us with a lot of those sprouts, you know what I mean. And they, because they are, around there in the Baltics they are there, that's what they eat a lot. And she got poisoned.

LEVINE:

She got poisoned from the sprouts?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, whatever they gave us there to eat. We were in barracks. She was in the ladies' barrack, because she was a youngster, and I was with the men in a barrack. You see what I mean? And then when she passed away, it took two more months I stayed there till I got the visa, and I came to America.

LEVINE:

Well, that must have been, because you had just lost your mother.

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, I lost, but I couldn't bury my mother because, you know. But then, you know what I mean, we still had to stay there. You know what I mean? We didn't know about the visa until the visa came. And when the visa came in, we had to get out. And the fact is, I went with my sister, we were leaving. Because I didn't want to go, you know. I figured, I liked it, to me, you know, the Soviet government, you know. At that time it was all, the Revolution was all set. But I could, you know, when you're used to a place, don't think everybody wanted to go. So, but my grandmother said to me, "Look, you've got your aunts, you've got your uncles down there. Your father is there. You've got to take your sister and make sure that, you know, that she should, you know, be somebody, and so on. So naturally I took it and I went down. What do you think, my cousin, the one that, you know, had a little romance with those guys, you know, those guerrillas, that wanted to make a pogrom. So she was supposed to meet us and take us to the train, but she never did. So we came ourselves. And from there on we were riding like this, you know ( he gestures ). Just, it was nothing, no bedding, no nothing took along. You know, what do you know. But anyway, well, so I went . . .

LEVINE:

So did you have, like, a lot of examinations in order to make sure you were going . . .

CHERNIKOFF:

Oh, let me tell you something. My sister, in Riga, Latvia, over there, she received all of a sudden something, you know, like a spot, you know what I mean? It must have been some kind of a fungus or something.

LEVINE:

On her leg.

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah. So I went to, there in Riga, Latvia, I went to a big doctor because, from the office, you know, that we traveled there, recommended as a big doctor. And we went to him, and he used to give him those radio treatments, not radio. You know, at that time they had a big thing and they, the lights, you see what I mean? So he gave her treatments. But I was afraid that time that, you know, if he should, you know, go, and they would stop you. They used to be very strict in Ellis Island, you see? They would, any little thing they would send people back. That was a lot of people to send back. And, well, I was alone already and I was all right, you see? So I, when I come to Ellis Island, the day before Christmas. And my father is supposed to meet me. So my father, what happened? He forgot his citizen papers. See the smartness of, of your parents, how they were. You know, you can't say, but that's what it is. To come to take your son off, and not to take the papers with him. So actually I had to sleep on Ellis Island Christmas. So I spent the Christmas at Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

What was that like? What was Christmas like?

CHERNIKOFF:

It was nice. You know, memories. It was nice. I was like growing up, you know. I did nothing, it didn't mean nothing, you know what I mean? It was nice. We were treated. We were given some presents, you know. And that was, the next day my father came to take, to get me. And so, you know . . .

LEVINE:

You didn't even know him.

CHERNIKOFF:

I wouldn't know him. "Hello, I'm your father." "Hello, I'm your son." You don't know, you're two strange people. You see, so then, you know, we came. When I got in over the city, you know, to Wall Street, you look at the buildings, you pass them by, it's like something. You never seen anything like it. And then my uncles, you know, after I came to the house, you know, he remarried here because he figured, you know, the two children, you know, he'll have, but he didn't, that this would happen. So, anyway, he remarried and he had for me a place. But, uh . . .

LEVINE:

Now, you didn't stay with your father?

CHERNIKOFF:

I stood with him, yeah. And I got with the uncles, I helped, you know. One of my uncles had a laundry, so I, when I went to school. But then I came, I helped out in there. And he was teaching me how to, he went to school, he started going to school, because. But he, he wrote to me, taught me, you know, to, he was very, very involved, you know what I mean? And I used to, he, then come home to my father.

LEVINE:

What was your uncle's name?

CHERNIKOFF:

My uncle's name, too. That's Weiner.

LEVINE:

Weiner.

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah. It's the Weiner, Harry Weiner. But with him, too. But it was . . .

LEVINE:

How was it being with your father at that point?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, well, I'll tell you what it is. If he doesn't know, so, you know, I tried. I tried, I went to school, you know. But then it wasn't like you had somebody that you really cared or he cared for you. You were with a stranger. And he didn't have children to take care of, then all of a sudden he started, you know. And I was, you know, getting a bit older and, you know, I liked to play soccer, you know, a little. You know what I did, I got acquainted. But to him, he wanted to show it, you know, but I wouldn't take it. But then after later on we moved from Brooklyn to The Bronx and I got acquainted with a lot of people and went through as tough, tough thing. You're going to be alone, you know. You're in a room. But when you are growing you try. Look what's doing now with the young people. They don't want to be there with parents. They don't want to live. To go to school you've got to have a college, you've got a dormitory or whatever. It was very nice.

LEVINE:

Did you go to actual school in the day time or you worked right away?

CHERNIKOFF:

Yes, I went to day school. Sure, I went to, in Brooklyn, sure. I went, I had to be. They had to register me right there.

LEVINE:

Did you have any experiences that you can think of learning English?

CHERNIKOFF:

No, no, no. At that time I just came in. I didn't know anything. I had fights with the kids down there. I didn't know how to talk, you know.

LEVINE:

Did they pick you on?

CHERNIKOFF:

Of course they pick on you. At that time, the Italians, there was a section in Brooklyn, you know, they were Jewish and Italian going to the same school, so there were fights. So once I had to fight with them, you know. And they got me cornered, you know, so I had to fight one of them. So they got a principal, what do you think the principal, he was Russian. He came from Odessa, too. But he gave me a going out, so I didn't like it. So, you know, it was like, hopefully, you know, those days you come from your original, I thought that I was going to throw him right down the stairway. You know, I didn't like, you know, you didn't used to. But that went through, and out of it. You know, there was a struggling then, you know. You know, we would have to be come in. We had a depression here, you know. I got married in (?).

LEVINE:

How did you meet your wife?

CHERNIKOFF:

I met my wife, went to a dance. How do you meet a wife? You know, you met her through a dance and you get together, you know. Both single and, you know, hit her up. ( he laughs )

LEVINE:

Did you mix mostly with other people who were coming from Russia?

CHERNIKOFF:

Oh, yeah. In the beginning, yeah. In the beginning, you know, I joined one of the Russian, I didn't join, I went to a Russian, there was a Russian club down on the East Side on 7th Street there, you know, around Avenue A, you know. And then when I went to work I went to work for, you know, the painting. I become a painter, you know. So I got, my father sent me to his friends. So naturally, where do you think was the shop? They used to do school work on 7th Street between Avenue A and First Avenue in the basement. You see, I passed it by when I went to look around. And last year or two years, you know, when I take a walk to, downtown to the barber's and so on. So I go to Second Avenue, you know, around, and First Avenue. So it's, it gives it the memory that here was it that I don't look at the place, you know. But it's very, you know, oh, yes. Then I went to, you know, I got acquainted. We moved to the Bronx. I went, I got acquainted, we went dancing and so on. And I usually love dancing, and so that's what . . .

LEVINE:

Did you do Russian kinds of dancing?

CHERNIKOFF:

That was, that was, that, no. Here it was American dancing already. The Russian, I didn't learn how to dance the Russian because I was a youngster, you know. And I wasn't, like here a youngster twelve, thirteen years has got a girlfriend. There I could only look, but I didn't, who, who was, who, who would . . .

LEVINE:

You never had a girlfriend?

CHERNIKOFF:

No, not in Russia. You couldn't, it was mixed up. It was . . .

LEVINE:

Too much turmoil.

CHERNIKOFF:

Here, when you came already, different is different still. In those days, in the 1920's, you know, not all the youngsters, you know, had boyfriends and girlfriends. Maybe as later years come in already, became older. But at that time kids were taught at that time that they should, you know, that they should learn, you know, the parents used to teach them, you know, to play the piano or teach them, you know, violin and so on. We had people, my father lived once with them, and they had, played violin, you know. But this is families, those days, that's all what they did. Wanted the children to grow up, not like they when they came in, but they should know something. That's how you, a lot of people become something, and some didn't, because they were going through bad times. They had boarders, those days, too, you know what I mean?

LEVINE:

Tell me about that.

CHERNIKOFF:

There were boarders where, and the fact is, when I got married, I had a boarder. I lived in the Bronx. I took a boarder. And then they brought, we lived right against St. Ann's church, you know, on St. Ann's Avenue in the Bronx on 139th Street? And we went to the movies, and they robbed us. They broke through the door. They didn't care that there's a church in the back. And it was a lot of things that went through the Depression, you know, not jobs, and going around and looking for a job, and not to go joining the union or nothing. It was . . .

LEVINE:

What did you do during the Depression?

CHERNIKOFF:

What did I do during the . . .

LEVINE:

Were you able to find work?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, it was hard. You see what I mean? It was, you couldn't get to jobs. There was nothing being done, because there was no money around. Money was scarce, you know. So whatever you got, I went into the WPA, they gave at that time.

LEVINE:

You were working for the WPA?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, at first I went on relief. You couldn't, I didn't have no money. And the first, when the relief opened at that time in 1930 and '31, so they wanted to, no, it was in 19, when Roosevelt, I think, started the relief and so on. Yeah. When Roosevelt came in 1933, '32. END OF SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

CHERNIKOFF:

But it wasn't anything, and nobody, the parents didn't have. They say, "Go to the parents and let them help you." But the parents didn't have no money. ( he laughs ) There was no money in those days. It was a horrific thing. So what do you think. So anyway that's, so we had to struggle, that's all. And you got a day's work here and there. Well, anyway, I went, so the relief then went ahead and gave you to work for ten days a month, so they gave you the money. You see what I mean?

LEVINE:

I see.

CHERNIKOFF:

So this was the WPA, the Works Progress Administration, WPA. It's history, darling, it's history. I'm telling you.

LEVINE:

Yes, I know. What, so tell me what you did, like, for those ten days.

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, the ten days. Oh, I worked in, they assigned us, you know, to work painting the schools. They were painting the schools. So I worked in high schools, and we worked very hard. And there were some other jobs, if we were transferred there, you know, there were easier jobs. These jobs were in the schools, you had to get up, you know, work on planks and do this. A lot of work, because if you had a foreman who wants to show what he can do, so he, you know, who do you? But it was tough, and . . .

ROSE HALPERN:

You had a child.

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah. Well, no, I didn't have a child. ( comment off mike ) When I got married, yeah. Well, I didn't have a child. I didn't want a child for about four years. Then my wife was pregnant in 1936. And she, I had a big doctor from Lebanon Hospital. He was in charge of the, where they go in for, people all come in, what is that? They come, the clinic. I couldn't think, you know. The clinic. The head of the clinic. And he neglected her, and she received high blood pressure and kidney trouble. I wasn't working at that time, and I was, we had, I took a room for her in Coney Island for that period so, you know, that should be easier for her. But she went back to the doctor, she came to the Bronx with her sisters and to the doctor, and she received that, and they couldn't find me, you know, to get me. By the time I got, there she was pregnant, she was one week before the seventh month. So they had to kill the child. You know, in those days they believed that the child, a woman can have children, but the children, so it was a boy. I didn't want to see it. I gave it, let them practice and so on, and she survived. See what I mean? And then later, this was 1936. In 1940 my wife got pregnant and she, in 1940 she had a girl. I got my daughter, who lives in Staten Island.

LEVINE:

What was your wife's name?

CHERNIKOFF:

My wife's name was Yetta.

LEVINE:

And her maiden name, can you remember?

CHERNIKOFF:

Uh, Graver.

LEVINE:

G-R-A . . .

CHERNIKOFF:

G-R-A-V-E-R.

LEVINE:

Was she also coming from Russia, or was she born here?

CHERNIKOFF:

She was, too, from Russia. She came from Kiev. She, too, had a very strong life. Her father, you know, had left, you know what I mean, and came to America, left most of the children, came with one. Then after they took out the other ones. Then it's, then he went ahead and he brought his nanny that used to help out and, you know, she became his girlfriend and the mother found out, got crazy, went to the nut house, you know. A lot of people had so many different troubles, you know, that you can, it's so much, if you begin to rehash and think about it.

LEVINE:

Tell me, because a lot of times people won't talk about the hardships here, but what were the kinds of things . . .

CHERNIKOFF:

If I don't say anything here, I wouldn't have anything to say. That's what, I even told her. ( referring to Ms. Halpern ) I says, "You better go." I says, "I don't know if I'll be able to . . ."

LEVINE:

This is very interesting, because I'd be interested to know, like, what was it among the Russian people who immigrated here, what was the parts of life that people don't want to talk about.

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, maybe a lot of them went through, you know, a lot of things. You know, you had a Revolution. Whoever came before, you know, that got out before, well, they were the ones supposed to take the families, and a lot of men came here and supposed to take their families. When the war came in, and if they didn't, had, you know, they didn't become citizens, you see what I mean? They couldn't take the families. It wasn't like anything now coming in. People, the Russians are coming in, grandfather, grandmother. I came with my sister. I had to wait, and she died on the way. You know what I mean? That's some feeling about this here. And here people coming in, and some of them, what gets me, and I like them, I got acquainted, I speak the language, I speak Russian. And I lived in Brighton in the last years. I'm only here twenty-two years. I came here with my wife. But they came in, a lot of them, and were very nasty. And it was coming to them, things. You see, in Brighton you lived, you know, that's where they come in. Brighton-by-the-Sea, and Odessa-by-the-Sea. ( he laughs ) Yeah. See, it was actually, they, a lot of, you know. So when I seen things like this, some of their behavior, I got acquainted with some who were very nice. Some of them, when they heard me talk Russian, and when I had got to see it to get them over, they couldn't get over. They says, "You didn't, you're not an American." When I visited Russia during 1965 they said to me I wasn't an American, because I spoke the language and I knew, I came to my city, I recognized things. But it wasn't the same thing, you know. But, still, but this is what it is. They came in, a lot of them don't want to talk about it. Because it's going a lot of them, even some you forget. You see what I mean? And there wasn't anything nice to talk, because if you were going away, you see. The Russians claimed, when they came here with fifteen, twenty years ago, started coming in here, they claimed that they had, some of them claimed they had good. A fellow was telling me, he says, "I had two apartments." I says, "So what the hell are you doing here? Who needs you? Why didn't you go back?" That's what you heard. Now it's, now it's, I mean, some of them settled down, you know. They've been here, I don't want to say. Because if this goes to the Russians, not that, you know what I mean. But they were very behaved. But some of them, the older people, some of them like it. Look, they gave them, when we came in they didn't give us anything. Here they gave them rooms, apartments. I couldn't get an apartment in Brighton if I wanted to. You know that? They could get one apartment. If they didn't like the other apartment, they stood six months or whatever it is, and then they gave them a different apartment. You couldn't get an apartment, you see? So, you see, they have money, they were given everything, you see. So all the people, what have they got to lose? Wait till you get unemployment. For what? Did they work for unemployment. And some of them were smart. They didn't go ahead and say, you see what I mean, that they get, you know, money, you know, where they're working a few days. So they, it's a wonderful world. We are the ones that come in, at that time. It was a Depression. We didn't have it, you know, that was tough. We were lived through. They were nothing. They go into the big stores in Brighton Beach Avenue and you'll see. They come in, some of them come in with coupons, yet, you see what I mean, and dress beautifully. Because they couldn't, all this, because there was black market down there. So they had to be afraid. They eat the best. When they eat, you know, they go in, they got the cabarets down there. To me, when I go to the cabaret, when I want to go to the cabaret, but I said, "What the hell? I don't have to pay them forty dollars for a meal or fifty dollars, you know." So, but they, to them nothing means. It's the, because they didn't have all those things, you see, that they could have because, on the open. So they are taking advantage now, because, and now that some of them are going to work, now the younger people got smarter. They're going to work. But in the beginning it wasn't so. So that's a lot of (?) went through, you know, didn't want to discuss it. And a lot of them probably didn't know. It's only that the people, see, known as the Polish people, the Polish youth that came from Poland, because there was a lot of Jews down there, and the families, they all lived together before this ruckus started, you know. And naturally they have a lot to talk about because they were young, their families were killed. But they know, they were all together. A lot of us don't know. I know myself I couldn't, I don't know so much about love that there was there. You see? I know I had a dance. I used to go to meet them, dance, our uncle. But there wasn't, it didn't.

LEVINE:

There's not close ties. You didn't really know them.

CHERNIKOFF:

You know, it was, how could it be close ties? We were all, have our own trouble. When I came to Russia, visited Russia in 1965, I went to Israel, and from there I went with my wife to Russia. It was, I've always dreamed to see. It was my dream, I wanted to go to Russia to see what that is. So, you know, you dream and you get up. You think about it. So when I told my wife, she was an officer and worked in Kitty Kelly Shoes. She had a big, she was the office manager, had about forty girls taking care of. She got the job during the war. You see, the men were taken at that time, you know, so she got the job. And she stood twenty-five years there. But I told her, I seen her, she knew that I wanted to go to Russia. When we had there, there was an ad in the papers that Russia and Israel, there was a lot of Jewish organizations going with that. So she asked, so I said to her, "Look, see if you can get off for a month, and let's take the trip." "What? Russia? I don't want to go to Russia." Well, anyway, she did it, she told the big shot there, you know, that she wants her vacation, and we went to Israel first, and then we went to Russia. And it wasn't the same. You know how it is when you come when you're away. Everything is old. Some of them are new. It doesn't, it didn't matter or anything. But she enjoyed, as an American, and we traveled, you know, she loved. She liked life. And this was, so we had a nice time. Well, it came a time that you got to go. So here is one, the survivor, and one is gone. And we're talking about, and what is life now? When I have known people, you see? I'm still with the painter's union, you know, retired. And I came here to Florida in 1970, we bought it, and then I moved in '71 and organized the big pensioners club from District Council 9 in New York near 14th Street. And I had a club about two hundred and fifty people, you see, in Florida.

LEVINE:

You said pensioners?

CHERNIKOFF:

Pensioners, yeah. And they, the day, I remember the club of five people. ( he laughs ) Would you believe it? Two hundred people used to run a luncheon every year, you know, and it was, that's the routine of life. And now when I go there I go to Brighton, I don't used to know or even see, I don't see anybody, I don't know but the Russians. But otherwise nobody. We are survivors. We are here now, me and her. ( referring to Ms. Halpern ) We got together. We are survivors, you know. She will tell you her way she would go through.

LEVINE:

Well, tell me. What do you think it's meant to you that you started out in Russia and you came here at fourteen and you started a new life. What is there . . .

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, in the beginning, in the beginning, in the beginning I thought of Russia. You know, when you come in, like anybody else. I don't accuse anybody that says, "I like Russia," when they come in now and so on, because they lived all their life. You're used to it. But when you get used to it, and when you live, and as year and year and you work and so on. When I came to Russia in '65, and when they asked me, the Russians, first of all the ones that, I said I don't want to, they ask right away, "Why did you leave Russia?" "I left Russia, I had my father." You see, I had my answer. "Would you like to stay here?" I says, "Like hell." I says, "I have my car in America, I've got my life there, and so on. What is it?" But, you see, it's different already, you see, at that time, you know. So you think differently altogether. You're American, you're an American. I'm an American. I am, so many years I was in the service and so on. My wife said what do I want Russia for?

LEVINE:

Well, how do you feel about the Russian heritage that you have?

CHERNIKOFF:

No. I don't feel it. I like the American. Too bad that I wasn't, you know, but that's what it is, sure. My daughter is an American. My two grandsons are Americans born here. So how can I feel it, I went there, I came back. I wouldn't have lived down there. I wouldn't go, and especially look what they're going through now. They're going through, they don't even know what's going to happen, because Yeltsin is a big man right now, doesn't mean anything. He can, he can lose like this. He cannot get support. And people are Russian? ( he lowers his voice ) Where this will be? I don't want to mention. Religious I don't want to go into because if I should go there, because it is, a lot of the Jewish are getting today, are afraid. I spoke to people that then I see on the television. If you watch it sometimes you see it. And they're, they're told to get out of Russia. You see? And the Russian now has stopped sending them out. It's terrific. One I seen on television where the family was burned, the apartment burned. The daughter was killed. And this is the people, the people are afraid. And now they want to run. A lot of them didn't want to go to Israel. Now they would like to get out. You see what I mean? You don't know what's going to be. If Yeltsin (?), it might be bad for the Jewish people. You see what I mean? That's what they're thinking of. Because they opened up all the churches, they opened up all the anti-Semite thing and all that stuff. This is, look, I liked Russia, but Russia not anything like us, those Russians. But now they should be damn glad that they'll be here and they'll get in business. All over now. You see what I mean.

LEVINE:

Well, is there anything else you can think of?

CHERNIKOFF:

I don't know.

LEVINE:

I was interested in the social clubs.

CHERNIKOFF:

Ask me. The social clubs?

LEVINE:

The social clubs, when you first came. What went on there? What were they like?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, all right. They had entertainment, you know. They had, you know, like dance and so on, you see? And there were a lot of clubs in the Bronx, you know. I mean, clubs, you know, with people, for dancing the young people would enjoy. It came that time a lot of people came from, you know. And it was nice. It was nice. It was quiet, it was nice and quiet, you see. I remember Brooklyn was quiet. I remember now, in the Bronx, my God. There's the City of New York. She lives in 61st Street, you know, right in the heart, in Lexington Avenue, right, the corner building. And what do you think? What's at night today. You've got to be afraid, even there. If I go down to, what's his name, to the theaters, you see, you've got to take a cab. Other way if you want to take, you take a bus and you've got to change. And what happens, you got to wait. The buses don't run so often and so on. You don't know. It's a different world.

LEVINE:

Tell me about coming on the voyage, the actual voyage.

CHERNIKOFF:

Oh, the voyage was nice. We had ten days here, all right, I'll tell you. My ship was the name America, and it was, American, it was the United States Line that had the ships. We were ten days, I was ten days on it.

LEVINE:

And can you remember anything about that trip?

CHERNIKOFF:

I don't know. It was a lot of people, you know what I mean. And it was nice, and everybody was happy when we hit the Statue. You know how it is.

LEVINE:

Did you know what the Statue was?

CHERNIKOFF:

I didn't know anything. What did I know about the Statue. I didn't know nothing, you know what I mean? I didn't know. But it was everybody, people, a lot of people were happy, you know, to get in there. And it was very nice. And you lived and you work and you do all the things. Anything else you want to know? ( he laughs ) Being that, you know.

LEVINE:

You must have felt very alone when you first came, because your mother had died, your sister had died en route.

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah. Well, I was alone, but I was, I was a man. I wasn't scared of anything like it. You see what I mean? I did all the things right away, you know. So what, you face it as it comes, that's all. You face Depression, you face when I was single and I didn't, I was in a room. And I didn't, you know, you've got, you know, you've got a day's work here and there, but you face it. You see? You don't just give it up. You see what I mean? I didn't live with my father, but I didn't go to beg my father to take me back or something. I just didn't want it. I wanted to be by myself. And that's the way it is. Then I met a woman, that she was alone, and she was unhappy, and that's what it was. ( Ms. Halpern continues to speak off-mike. ) You see?

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

CHERNIKOFF:

Now I'm, you know, I met her about two-and-a-half up in the mountains, you know. ( referring to Ms. Halpern ) I went to name, a place by the name of the Granite Hotel.

LEVINE:

In the Catskills.

CHERNIKOFF:

A lot of singles go there, you know. And we met there, and we go now, in August we'll be, the fifth will be three years we know each other. And we just, eh, you know how it is. No marriage, you know, just together, you know, out.

LEVINE:

Companionship.

CHERNIKOFF:

And we enjoy companionship. And that's all. That's what it is.

LEVINE:

How do you . . .

CHERNIKOFF:

It's too late to get married, you know. I'm eighty-three years-and-a-half. I had two marriages. You see what I mean. My first marriage, you know, she died. I broke up with my first marriage. We grew out of each other. And the second marriage was very nice, thirty-four years.

LEVINE:

Now, what was your second wife's name?

CHERNIKOFF:

Bea, Beatrice.

LEVINE:

That's the one you mentioned before.

CHERNIKOFF:

Beatrice. She was the one that worked at Kitty Kelly's.

LEVINE:

Oh, okay. And how about your first wife? Are your children from your first wife?

CHERNIKOFF:

My children are from the first wife. I didn't have, she didn't have no children, and I didn't have no children, the second one. We had a beautiful, beautiful marriage, you know.

LEVINE:

Oh, good.

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, you know. There comes a time. ( voice off mike ) You've got to go. Would you like a cup of coffee or something?

LEVINE:

Yeah.

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah, come on, will you? You want her to talk, give her something, you know what I mean? How about a bagel or something?

LEVINE:

Oh, no, no, thank you.

CHERNIKOFF:

Nothing?

LEVINE:

Thank you, no, no.

CHERNIKOFF:

You mean you keep yourself, you don't want to eat food?

LEVINE:

No, I had something, thanks.

CHERNIKOFF:

Oh, you did.

LEVINE:

Now tell me, tell me about, um, this phase. How do you feel about your eighties?

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, I'll tell you. Well, you know, now, of course, you've got something, you go to the doctor, you know, you want to see. Because don't forget, any little thing. The only, you take a car, you've got to, I feel very good, you know. I still go dancing. You know what I mean? Go to shows, you know. And now I'm going in for mother's day. She wants to see her children there, you know. ( referring to Ms. Halpern ) So to satisfy her, I'm going to see my daughter, you see, and stay there two weeks. She's going to be three weeks.

LEVINE:

Now, did you say your daughter's name? I'm not sure, on the tape.

CHERNIKOFF:

Yeah, her. My daughter's name actually is Yetta, but we call her Dolly because, you know why? Because she was in the hospital in the Bronx when she was born, the nurse said she was such a beautiful baby so they call her "the dolly." So she loves Dolly, so we go with Dolly.

LEVINE:

And her married name?

CHERNIKOFF:

Her married, Bitel. B-I-T-E-L. The name is still the same, you see. Her husband remarried, but she still has that name.

LEVINE:

I see. And you have two grandchildren.

CHERNIKOFF:

Two grandboys, yeah, both married. One to an Italian, and one to a teacher, you know, Jewish. I don't see them often, you know. I'm here, but that's what it is. But I feel good. Why? Listen, as long as I feel all right, you know, why not? We're taking it today, day by day.

LEVINE:

Tell me what you're most proud of from your life?

CHERNIKOFF:

Proud? Well, I'll tell you something. I'm proud, I'll tell you. I wouldn't call it proud, because . . .

LEVINE:

Grateful?

CHERNIKOFF:

I look, I look at life, and here I am. I knew so many people that they're gone, and a lot of people, you know, that. And here I am, you go somewheres, you, you know, you don't see anybody that you know. You'll hear about those things, you know what I mean. And you are the survivor. No, but I like it, look. I want to live, hey, what the hell? I can walk and I can go to dance and I can eat and I can enjoy the meal, and I have a companion to do it. That's on the end of, you know, (?). So whatever will be. We go day by day to see and to enjoy, and that's all. Nothing else. I am, right now we are involved. I am the president of a condominium. I don't live here. I live in, a few minutes away. I am the president of a condominium, and I am back involved with them. ( referring to Ms. Halpern serving Dr. Levine coffee ) She doesn't want it. Give her a cup of coffee. You see, so . . .

LEVINE:

So you're active.

CHERNIKOFF:

I'm active, you see.

LEVINE:

Why do you, do you have any idea why you're the survivor, among so many people who weren't?

CHERNIKOFF:

You know what they say? I don't know. I'm a survivor, you see. My mother died thirty-six years old in Russia. My father died, he was eighty-five years old. He died in 1924 [sic].

LEVINE:

Did you ever get close to him at all after you came?

CHERNIKOFF:

No. I tell you, he was after, you know, his wife here, his wife died. So he, he got a little more older, so we got him into a home, and the Half Moon hotel, in Coney Island. That's just supposed to be one of the elite, that time. They wanted to make Atlantic City in Brooklyn to be like Atlantic City, Coney Island, but they didn't succeed. So we got him in down there, and I used to go to see him, you know what I mean. And he was, he was doing. I'll ask where he is, and they'll say, "Oh, he's dancing there with the people." You see what I mean? So that was, but not . . .

LEVINE:

But he, but how about you, as the survivor among so many people you knew who aren't? Do you have any sense of why you?

CHERNIKOFF:

No, I don't know. I don't ask "Why me?" Why me? It must be that I should survive up to now, that's all. Why me? Why does a hundred people, why should I think about it as thousands of people that steal live until a hundred and a hundred and ten. You know what I mean? So if you're going to ask and you say, look at that. There are so many people, they're dying. Sixty, sixty-five, younger people, seventy, that are gone. And some people live like that, so you ask why. This is what it is. It must be, what do you call it? Fate, or I used to say, what is the word? Look, I says, when I was working for other people, I say, "See? This on the wall is written my destiny. This is my destiny." And they used to kid along, you see what I mean? Why? Who knows? You see what I mean? I said one day, when my wife passed away, and I was blue, and I was again to an operation, and I said something to the doctor, and he says, "So you went ahead." And while he was in the hospital he sent two doctors to tell, to see me. So when they came in, I said to them, I says, "Who are you and what do you want?" "Well," he says, "your doctor sent me to see you. He said you wasn't so." At that time I thought to myself, "What the hell?" She died, I had a beautiful wife. Thirty-four years, actually seven years I met her, before the divorce, and I got her, and I says, "Look, there she is gone, and what the hell am I looking for?" What is it? You felt blue for that while, and now I just let it go. ( referring to the coffee ) This is Half-and-Half we got here. You like your Sweet and Lo or something? So this is what you take it. You take it in stride. ( a kettle is heard whistling in the background ) And I remember a few years, a while ago. That's many years now, when I went to visit people, one of the condominiums in West Palm Beach. And my wife's friend, a girlfriend, you know, her parents. So when I went to see them just to say who I am, they told me the man was sick, had a few heart attacks. And then she said, I'll never forget that. This is also on my mind. She says, "Well, he feels better, and every day we get up and we see the sun out, and we're here. That's beautiful." And then in later years he passed away, and I always begin to think of that, how, what she told me. I never realized anything like this, because when you feel all right and you're younger, you don't look, you don't think you're going to be this. But this is, but otherwise I just take it as it goes, you know. I got involved with a condominium. I'm the president. Usually I would be there now to see what's going on. We're making things, we got to do. We had a big hurricane, and then we had a storm, and things got to be fixed and so on. And there's nobody there, even there I am a survivor, that nobody knows anything, because I was for years there, and so on. Nobody knows what's what. So there you have it, you see? This is a survivor. ( he laughs )

LEVINE:

Okay. I think that's a good place to stop, as a survivor.

CHERNIKOFF:

No, I'm not kidding. When I come down I might take a look. When they start begging me, first they talked about me. When I went to the country with my wife they talked, "Oh, Chernikoff, he's a, oh, he's away in the country. Why is he so long, the president?" And so on. They all talked, I get home, and I did a lot of things for the condominium. But now sixty-one, we had, sixty-six, we have eighty in the condominium apartments. So eighty are (?). So I had sixty-six, that was, you say like, what do you call the name, that wanted me that I should take over the condominium. You see why? This is like a mandate, you know, they give. You see, we use the fancy words today that I never use, you see? So now I went in there, and what, I tell you, a lot of aggravation, you get insulted, you get belittled. You see somebody you're trying to do, there's so many things to do as president, a lot of people don't know. You come into a board. And they don't know nothing. You see what I mean? It goes in, they got a new, today we got rules, because a lot of people, (?), with the condominium, they come in. They didn't know what a condominium is, and they never asked. So they thought they can live the same as they lived alone. But condominium is together. You've got to grow together and so on. But whoever wanted, like I grew with the condominium, and I accepted it, but a lot of them didn't. So you had trouble. So they organized today, lawyers and so on, and the State of Florida created, you know what I mean, whatever, a group, or so on, to satisfy the people. So, you know, condominium. And every time come out new lows. And I'm telling you, I was sitting over there, they got to fix, you know, insurance people don't want to insure you today, because on account of the hurricane and so on, and they throw people out from the insurance. So we happened to be, and if you had a few cases the people complaints, you know what I mean? They went to sue, they don't want you, you know what I mean? So it's a terrific thing, you know. So you're involved in that. But I said to myself, "What the hell, am I crazy? What am I doing? What did I get involved with? This is no good." I mean, this is silly. But I am the survivor, and that's what it is.

ROSE HALPERN:

You sure you don't want half a bagel, honey, with your coffee?

LEVINE:

No, let me just say that, we're going to close here.

CHERNIKOFF:

Go ahead.

LEVINE:

And Murray Chernikoff, the survivor. And this is Janet Levine, and it's April 28, 1993, and I'm here in North Miami Beach, and I want to thank you very much, and I'm signing off.

CHERNIKOFF:

My pleasure. It's a pleasure, see? I was looking for you. You know, I was outside before, but I didn't know, I should have asked you what car and so on, but I didn't. But you're here, and I'm glad. It was a pleasure to meet you.

LEVINE:

You, too.

CHERNIKOFF:

Well, I'll probably see you in New York maybe.

LEVINE:

Wonderful.

CHERNIKOFF:

I'll come, you'll leave me the address, whatever it is, we'll see.