SIGRIST:

Good afternoon. This is Paul Sigrist for the National Park Service. We are here with Margaret Horan, who came from Ireland in 1914 when she was nineteen years old. Today is Wednesday, April 24th and we are at the home of her daughter Martie Hackett in Willingboro, New Jersey. Mrs. Horan, could you please give me your full name, including your maiden name, and your date of birth.

HORAN:

Margaret Convery.

SIGRIST:

And your date of birth?

HORAN:

The ninth of May, 1896 [sic: Mrs. Horan's family uses 1895 as her official birth year].

SIGRIST:

Okay. And could you spell your maiden name for us? Convery, could you spell that?

HORAN:

Convery, yes Convery. C‑O‑N‑V‑E‑R‑Y. Convery.

SIGRIST:

I see. And where were you born?

HORAN:

I was born in Scotland.

SIGRIST:

And can you, where in Scotland?

HORAN:

In, outside of Glasgow, the place called Coatbridge.

SIGRIST:

Code‑bridge?

HORAN:

Coatbridge, yes.

SIGRIST:

Could you spell that for us, please?

HORAN:

C‑O‑A‑T‑B‑R‑I‑D‑G‑E.

SIGRIST:

I see.

HORAN:

Coatbridge.

SIGRIST:

So your family was living there.

HORAN:

Yeah, they were living there.

SIGRIST:

Can you tell me, who was your father?

HORAN:

My father worked in the iron works in Scotland.

SIGRIST:

What was his name?

HORAN:

John.

SIGRIST:

I see. And was he Scottish?

HORAN:

No, he was Irish.

SIGRIST:

How did he end up in Scotland?

HORAN:

Well, I think his parents went over there when he was a boy and then raised him over in Scotland.

SIGRIST:

Do you know why they went to Scotland?

HORAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

I see. Talk a little bit about, you said your father worked in the iron works...

HORAN:

The iron works. Well, I can't tell you much about that because I was only five years old when we left Scotland.

SIGRIST:

I see, I see.

HORAN:

And my mother's health give out so she had to come to Ireland.

SIGRIST:

What was wrong with her? What was wrong with her?

HORAN:

Heart trouble.

SIGRIST:

What was her name?

HORAN:

Her name was Martha.

SIGRIST:

And what was her maiden name?

HORAN:

McKenna.

SIGRIST:

Could you spell that, please?

HORAN:

M‑C‑K‑E‑N‑N‑A.

SIGRIST:

Did she, did either your father or your mother have other family in Scotland?

HORAN:

My mother's people was all in Ireland but my father's father and mother were in Scotland.

SIGRIST:

They were still in Scotland.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you have any memories at all of being in Scotland yourself? Do you remember...?

HORAN:

Yes, I can remember.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember house you lived in?

HORAN:

Yes, it was like an apartment, second floor. I can remember that perfectly well.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how the rooms were laid out?

HORAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

But you remember being...

HORAN:

I just remember being there.

SIGRIST:

Were there other children in the family when you were in Scotland?

HORAN:

Yes, there were. My sister, two, two brothers and two sisters were born all in Scotland. Just one was born in Ireland. That's my youngest brother John.

SIGRIST:

What were the names of your other brothers and sisters?

HORAN:

Dan and Charlie.

SIGRIST:

And the sisters? The sisters, what were their names?

HORAN:

Bridget...

SIGRIST:

I see.

HORAN:

...and Matilda.

SIGRIST:

They were all older than you?

HORAN:

No, my, Bridget was the oldest. Then the two boys and then I come in. Then my other sisters were younger than me.

SIGRIST:

What else do you remember about Scotland? Do you remember maybe a holiday celebration of some sort, a Christmas?

HORAN:

Well, I remember one holiday. We went to, I can't think of that now, Edinburgh [she pronounces it "Edinboro"], and my uncle was there with his three little children and they were running up and down steps. I was I think about three, three years old, and we turned the corner and I wasn't quick enough to get up and I got lost and I can always remember the policeman picking me up. (she laughs) That kind of sticks in my mind. So he remembered them passing, so then he took, my mother missed me so she came back to get me. So that's all I remember about that.

SIGRIST:

What did your mother look like?

HORAN:

Ah, she was supposed to be a very good looking girl when she was young, so...

SIGRIST:

Was she tall?

HORAN:

No, about my height. She wasn't, she was thin. Not heavy.

SIGRIST:

Did she have dark hair? Dark hair, light hair? (a clock chimes in the background)

HORAN:

Well, kind of brown hair but then, naturally, it got like mine. It got white. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

What did Dad look like?

HORAN:

Oh, my. Just an ordinary man, I guess. He had dark hair but a red moustache. (she laughs) You could notice him from that. And he was a very good father.

SIGRIST:

Because he worked in the iron industry, was he very muscular? Was he...?

HORAN:

Yeah, he was a strong man. So, was...

SIGRIST:

(interrupting Mrs. Horan) You say, I'm sorry, go ahead.

HORAN:

That's about all I know about that.

SIGRIST:

You say he was a very good father. Was he very good with the kids?

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did he like kids?

HORAN:

Yeah, he was.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember going on outings with him or did he play with you?

HORAN:

We used to, when we were little, every year we went to Ireland for two months. He would take us over and leave us. We would come to my mother's people and then he would come in August and take us back.

SIGRIST:

What months?

HORAN:

Well, he would always bring us from home at the beginning of July. The end of August he would come and get us because the others had to go to school, so that's about all I can think about there.

SIGRIST:

You said that he brought you over to your mother's family in Ireland.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Talk about her family over there. Were there, talk about your grandparents. HORAN; Well, my grandparents both were old when I remember them. My grandfather was a shoemaker and he was, my grandmother was a very tall person and I don't remember much about them because my grandfather died shortly after we went home to Ireland.

SIGRIST:

What did he die of? What did he die of?

HORAN:

Old age.

SIGRIST:

He was very elderly.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember, were your grandparents strict people? Were they kind people?

HORAN:

Were they what?

SIGRIST:

Were they strict people?

HORAN:

Yeah, very. Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did they ever have to punish you for any reason?

HORAN:

No, I don't ever remember them. My mother used to wallop us once in a while (she laughs) but my father never hit any of us.

SIGRIST:

I see. When you were visiting your grandparents, was your grandmother a good cook?

HORAN:

Yes, she was a good cook.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember something that she made that you particularly liked?

HORAN:

Well, they didn't have much fancy cooking over there, you know, but she used to make what they called a "dumpling." It was like a cake and it was very good. Then my mother used to make it when she, we come, when she came back to Ireland.

SIGRIST:

How do you make that?

HORAN:

Well, she used to, whatever mix they'd put it in a pillowcase and boil it.

SIGRIST:

That's interesting. Yeah, was this for a special holiday kind of...

HORAN:

Yeah, kind of, there were raisins and everything was in it. It was very good, so...

SIGRIST:

All right, so you would go to Ireland for two months...

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And then your father would come and bring you back to Scotland.

HORAN:

Back to Scotland, yeah. That went on for five, five years and then we came to live in Ireland.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember moving from Scotland to Ireland?

HORAN:

No, I don't have much (she clears her throat), I don't have very much mind about that.

SIGRIST:

I see. So you were five.

HORAN:

But, yeah...

SIGRIST:

Go ahead, go ahead. What were you going to say?

HORAN:

Yeah, I was five and then I went to school in Ireland.

SIGRIST:

Okay, let's get you to Ireland, then. So the whole family moves to where in Ireland again?

HORAN:

Derry. County Derry [i.e. Londonderry, Northern Ireland]

SIGRIST:

County Derry.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

And so it's you, your mother, your father, two brothers?

HORAN:

Two, two brothers.

SIGRIST:

Two brothers and two sisters. So tell me about where you moved to. What was the house like that you moved to?

HORAN:

Well, my father had a new house built. (she clears her throat) And we had to rent a house while the other house was getting built and then, when it was built, my father then came home and he was a farmer then. That's how he made his living.

SIGRIST:

I see. Did he have his own fields...

HORAN:

Yeah, yeah.

SIGRIST:

... or did he rent fields?

HORAN:

He had his own land. It was his aunt's and he had bought it off her. So we lived there then 'til I come out here.

SIGRIST:

I see. Where did your father sell his produce?

HORAN:

Hmm?

SIGRIST:

Your father was a farmer, right?

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

So he had to sell his vegetables and things.

HORAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

Where did he do that?

HORAN:

Potatoes and corn (she clears her throat) and hay.

SIGRIST:

How did he sell it?

HORAN:

Well, he used to (she clears her throat), the potatoes, we eat them. (she laughs) That's what we had. And the corn, he would sell some of it and some of it he'd save, for he had cattle and he would feed the cattle on the hay.

SIGRIST:

I see. The house that he had built, was that a big farm?

HORAN:

Well, I don't know how many acres it was. That I couldn't tell you.

SIGRIST:

Did you keep animals? Did you keep animals?

HORAN:

Yeah, cows, pigs, chickens, ducks.

SIGRIST:

Did you have to help take care of these animals?

HORAN:

Yeah, feed the hens or feed the ducks.

SIGRIST:

I see. Let's talk a little bit about going to school in Ireland. Did you go to school?

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Talk a little bit about being a little girl and going to school in Ireland.

HORAN:

Well, I remember when I went to school I wouldn't talk because I had the Irish, (correcting herself) I had the Scotch accent and the kids used to make fun of me. And then I was a couple of months in school and I wouldn't even open my mouth and I was trying to pick up the Irish talk so as I could talk like them.

SIGRIST:

Did you do it?

HORAN:

I did pretty good. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any of your teachers in school in Ireland?

HORAN:

Yeah, Miss Broom [ph].

SIGRIST:

B‑R‑O‑O‑M?

HORAN:

And Miss McCruery [ph]. That's my two, that was the two school teachers.

SIGRIST:

Why do you remember them?

HORAN:

I don't know why, but I do remember them, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Were you a good student? Were you a good student?

HORAN:

Yeah, was I? I guess I wasn't too bad.

SIGRIST:

In school, what was your favorite subject?

HORAN:

Reading was mostly, and I liked to write a lot. I don't do much writing now.

SIGRIST:

No. Did you ever learn anything about America in school?

HORAN:

Well, yeah. They had a map there, see the different parts. But I always felt America, you didn't have to work. You just got the money for nothing. (she laughs) So I found out different. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Indeed. Did, I wanted you to describe the house that your father built for you.

HORAN:

Well it had, them days there were no bathrooms. (she clears her throat) We had an outhouse. And there were three bedrooms upstairs and a living room, kitchen downstairs.

SIGRIST:

Talk about the kitchen a little bit. Talk about the kitchen a little bit.

HORAN:

Oh, the teacher?

SIGRIST:

The kitchen.

HORAN:

Oh, the kitchen.

SIGRIST:

The kitchen in the house. What kind of stove did it have?

HORAN:

It had, uh, the fire was on the floor.

SIGRIST:

Like a fireplace?

HORAN:

Big fire, yeah, like a fireplace and the fire was right there, yeah. (she gestures) And then in the bedroom and in the living room they had a little small, where you could put a fire, like a little grate where you could put fires.

SIGRIST:

Is that how the house was heated?

HORAN:

And that's turf. They use turf, and coal.

SIGRIST:

Was there a coal bin in the house somewhere?

HORAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

Did you have your own bedroom in this house?

HORAN:

Me?

SIGRIST:

Yes.

HORAN:

No. There were three of us in the one bedroom. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Did you have to share a bed with somebody?

HORAN:

Yeah, and then the boys was in...

SIGRIST:

Which sister did you share the bed with?

HORAN:

Bridget and Matilda.

SIGRIST:

I see. (microphone disturbance) Talk a little bit about your sisters. Let's talk about Bridget. What was she like as a person?

HORAN:

Oh, she was a wonder--, she was a very jolly person, Bridget. She was, she was ninety, what was it, ninety‑six when she died so, uh...

SIGRIST:

She was a lot of fun when she was a little girl?

HORAN:

She was. She was very, she was a nice looking girl, very nice.

SIGRIST:

And what about Matilda, what was she like?

HORAN:

Oh, Matilda is, I think she's wonderful. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Were you closer to Matilda than you were to Bridget?

HORAN:

No, I don't think I was. I was more time with Bridget than I was with Matilda.

SIGRIST:

Right, right.

HORAN:

Though I had a letter today from her and she wanted me to come home.

SIGRIST:

She's still in Ireland.

HORAN:

Yeah, she's married and has two sons. The two sons are married and have family.

SIGRIST:

Did all your family, your brothers and sisters, did everyone get along or did you fight as children?

HORAN:

Oh, we had our, naturally, every now and then you would have, the boys used to fight with Bridget. Bridget used to bake some bread and they used to steal it on her, so, so that's where the battle would start. Like, there were fair days in Ireland. My mother and father would always go to the fair. Maybe they were selling some cattle. And then Bridget, she was the head of the house because they were gone. And she used to back what they called "scones" and they used to come in and steal them. So naturally there was a battle over the bread. But they were very good. They were two good boys. Dan came out here in 1912. Charlie, he married in Ireland. He never came out, yeah.

SIGRIST:

I see. You said your mother and father went to the fair to buy cattle...

HORAN:

No, to sell cattle.

SIGRIST:

To sell cattle. Was there a fair like once a year or...?

HORAN:

No, once a month they had a fair.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe the fair a little bit?

HORAN:

Yeah. They had it in a place called Maghera.

SIGRIST:

Could you spell that please? How do you spell?

HORAN:

M‑A‑G‑H‑E‑R‑A, Maghera.

SIGRIST:

And what was the fair like?

HORAN:

Well, they had pigs and they had sheep and cows and been a lot going on in the fair, you know, on a fair day.

SIGRIST:

Did you used to go to the fair?

HORAN:

Well, not very often, not very often.

SIGRIST:

I see. Let's talk a little bit about religious life. What were you religiously?

HORAN:

Catholic.

SIGRIST:

You were Catholics. Was there a church in this town?

HORAN:

Yeah. The church was about three miles from where we lived. We used to have to walk to church back and forth.

SIGRIST:

What was the name of the church?

HORAN:

Uh, oh, Saint Patrick's (unintelligible).

SIGRIST:

Of Glen?

HORAN:

(unintelligible) yeah, Saint Patrick's (unintelligible), and it's still there. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what it looked like on the inside? Was it a big church or a small church?

HORAN:

No, it wasn't a very big church. It was all changed like when I went home this last time. They had done it over. It was different than it was when I went there. They made it larger. So it was a nice little church.

SIGRIST:

Was it ornate on the inside when you were a kid?

HORAN:

Yes. I always thought the altar was on one side and this way they have it now they have it at the end. They changed the altar over.

SIGRIST:

I see. Was there a cemetery near the church?

HORAN:

Yeah, the cemetery was right at the church, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Now, the town that you moved to, was this the town where your father's (correcting himself), your mother's parents lived? In Derry, when you moved to Derry, is this where your mother's parents lived?

HORAN:

Yeah. That's where my mother was raised, in Derry.

SIGRIST:

So did your grandparents live near you?

HORAN:

No, it was a different town. We were Brockariley [ph] and they were, uh, I can't think of the name, it was Ballynoff [ph], I guess.

SIGRIST:

How far away was it?

HORAN:

Oh, it was a couple of miles in the distance.

SIGRIST:

Did you ever, you went and visited them sometimes once you moved?

HORAN:

Yes, when I moved we used to, my grandmother used to come over to visit, back and forth.

SIGRIST:

Did you spend holidays together with your grandparents? Like Christmas, did you all get together for Christmas?

HORAN:

At Christmas we'd always visit and at Easter we would visit. Or they would come and visit us.

SIGRIST:

(a clock chimes in the background) Did you have a big celebration at Eastertime, a special meal of something?

HORAN:

Oh, naturally, we would have a special meal. I mean, fried chicken, you know, potatoes and a vegetable.

SIGRIST:

I see. You said...

HORAN:

Nothing fancy.

SIGRIST:

(he laughs) Very plain.

HORAN:

Yeah, plain.

SIGRIST:

You mentioned earlier that, that your sister and you sang. Were you a musical family?

HORAN:

I don't know. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Did your father sing or was he, did he play an instrument?

HORAN:

No, my mother, my mother used to sing, I think, when she was young.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember all getting together with the family members and singing or playing instruments or anything like that?

HORAN:

Yeah, we used to play the accordion and my brother Charlie played the violin. So on a Sunday there would be, some of the neighbors would come in, you know, they'd have dancing, singing.

SIGRIST:

Right in your house?

HORAN:

Right in the house, in the kitchen.

SIGRIST:

It was a big kitchen?

HORAN:

Well, it was a good size.

SIGRIST:

How did you prepare for the neighbors coming in? Did you feed them?

HORAN:

Well, we didn't prepare. They just came in. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

I see. Were there lots of neighbors?

HORAN:

Yeah, we had quite a few neighbors. Ones not far from us. Ones back of us. Then the others was a little distance away, but there a lot there were, about eight or nine families all in that, like in a group.

SIGRIST:

Did your mother work?

HORAN:

Before she, uh, before she got married she worked.

SIGRIST:

But not after she got married?

HORAN:

Huh?

SIGRIST:

But not after she was married?

HORAN:

No, after she was married. Once you get married you don't work over there but now you do. (Mr. Sigrist laughs) It's entirely different.

SIGRIST:

You said that in 1912 your brother Dan came to America.

HORAN:

Yeah, he came out here.

SIGRIST:

Why?

HORAN:

Well, I don't know. I guess there weren't much for him to get work over there, so then he came out here.

SIGRIST:

What did he do when he got here?

HORAN:

He worked on the railroad, I think. I think that's what he did. Then he sent me my ticket to come.

SIGRIST:

Did you have any other family here in America?

HORAN:

No. No relatives of any.

SIGRIST:

So where did he go to live?

HORAN:

Well, he boarded with someone, this lady, and when we came that's where we came. But we were only three days in the country when we were at work. We got work. Bridget had got a job in a private house and I, not far from each other.

SIGRIST:

When your brother came in 1912, where was the boarding house? Was it in New York City?

HORAN:

No, Philadelphia.

SIGRIST:

It was in, he went to Philadelphia.

HORAN:

Yeah, Philadelphia, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did he go right to Philadelphia or did he go to Ellis Island and then to Philadelphia.

HORAN:

I imagine he went to Ellis Island. I really don't know but I imagine he went to Ellis Island, yeah.

SIGRIST:

I see. How much older is he than you?

HORAN:

He is, I guess, about three years older than me.

SIGRIST:

So was he writing letters back and forth? And was he writing to you?

HORAN:

Yeah, he was writing. And then he said he got lonely so he wanted somebody out so he sent for me.

SIGRIST:

Was he, was he happy that he was in America? Was he happy that he had come?

HORAN:

Oh, yeah. Oh, he liked America.

SIGRIST:

And he wanted you to come over to visit.

HORAN:

Yeah. And then my mother wouldn't let me come alone. She sent Bridget with me. Otherwise Bridget would never had been in America.

SIGRIST:

You said that he sent you your ticket to come over. Were you working in Ireland?

HORAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

Because you were a young lady at this point. You were in your teens.

HORAN:

My mother wouldn't let us. Over there the girls usually was hired out, you know, went to farm houses. But my mother wouldn't let none of us go.

SIGRIST:

Why?

HORAN:

I don't know why but she said no.

SIGRIST:

Did you have responsibilities in the house?

HORAN:

Well, I really didn't do much work, I suppose maybe feed the hens or something.

SIGRIST:

You didn't have to make the beds or anything like that?

HORAN:

Oh, yeah. We all had to do that. Clean up or something like that. I didn't do very much work in Ireland to tell you. I didn't like farming.

SIGRIST:

Did your father like farming?

HORAN:

Yeah, yeah.

SIGRIST:

He liked it better than working in...

HORAN:

Well, he had to like it because he had to make a living.

SIGRIST:

Were you, were the children ever expected to go out into the fields and help him?

HORAN:

Yeah, yeah, surely. I gathered the potatoes or the hay, yeah. It was a good life.

SIGRIST:

Hard life.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did you have to make your own clothes or did you buy clothes?

HORAN:

No, we bought, my mother used to make some of our clothes but otherwise we had to buy them.

SIGRIST:

I see. There was a store in town?

HORAN:

Oh, yeah. Maghera. There were a lot of stores.

SIGRIST:

I see. Well, let's get you to America. So Dan has sent you your passage and you want to come.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Yes. So, but your mother, you said your mother wouldn't let you come.

HORAN:

Mother, well, she didn't, she didn't want me to go but when he sent the ticket, so then Bridget came along with me, my sister. And there was a man home from America, a neighbor, and we went back with him.

SIGRIST:

You went back over with him.

HORAN:

Yeah, with him. His name was McGlade [ph], Paddie McGlade [ph].

SIGRIST:

(microphone disturbance) If your mother didn't really want you to go, how did you tell that you were going to go?

HORAN:

Well, really, that I can't remember. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Was it a secret or were you...?

HORAN:

Well, I, yes. It was supposed to be a secret but when he sent the letter, they got it.

SIGRIST:

They opened your mail.

HORAN:

Yeah. Well, they see it was from my brother so they would open it. The ticket was in it.

SIGRIST:

How did your mother react to that?

HORAN:

Well, naturally she felt bad. She didn't want to part with us. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Did, do you remember packing?

HORAN:

Yeah. We didn't pack very much.

SIGRIST:

What did you take?

HORAN:

Just a small suitcase.

SIGRIST:

What kinds of things did you put in the suitcase?

HORAN:

Well, just a couple of dresses and skirts, underwear.

SIGRIST:

Did your mother and father have a sort of "send off" dinner for you or a little party?

HORAN:

Yeah, they had, had a big dance that night, the night before we left. So they had a big dance for us and all the neighbors came.

SIGRIST:

Did anyone give you "goodbye" gifts?

HORAN:

Very little. They didn't have much to give, so.

SIGRIST:

Was that sad, saying goodbye to everyone?

HORAN:

Yeah, I guess it was sad but I said I didn't have sense enough to realize that I was leaving, you know, 'til I got out here and then I realized I missed home, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Sure. So how, what port did you leave from?

HORAN:

(she clears her throat) Well, I had to go into Maghera and take a train to Belfast.

SIGRIST:

Could you spell Maghera for us?

HORAN:

M‑A‑G‑H‑A‑R‑A [sic], Maghera.

SIGRIST:

Okay, thanks.

HORAN:

And then we took a train into Belfast, and then from Belfast we took a boat over to Queenstown.

SIGRIST:

Was this the first time you'd ever been on a train?

HORAN:

Oh, no. I was on the train several times before, coming back and forth from Scotland, you know, we were on a train. And then in Queenstown, that's where we got on the boat.

SIGRIST:

What was...

HORAN:

The Lusitania.

SIGRIST:

And did your parents go with you to Queenstown?

HORAN:

No, we left, no. My mother didn't go but my father and the rest of the family left me at Maghera.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember saying "goodbye" to them?

HORAN:

Yeah. I didn't want them to say "good bye."

SIGRIST:

How did you feel then?

HORAN:

Well, I felt sad and yet I didn't realize, you know, you don't realize when you're young what you're leaving behind.

SIGRIST:

Were you excited to see your brother?

HORAN:

Yes, yes I was.

SIGRIST:

So you got on the Lusitania at Queenstown.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe the accommodations in the boat? Where did you sleep?

HORAN:

Well, I call them bunks. They were like, there were four in a room.

SIGRIST:

You had your own cabin?

HORAN:

Two up and two, yeah. And it had like a wash basin in the room and so, it was a very nice boat.

SIGRIST:

Who else was in the room with you and Bridget?

HORAN:

Huh?

SIGRIST:

Who else was in with you and Bridget?

HORAN:

Oh, I don't, I can't...

SIGRIST:

But there were other people.

HORAN:

Yeah. Two girls I don't remember. END OF CASSETTE TAPE, SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF CASSETTE TAPE, SIDE TWO

SIGRIST:

Was it a rough voyage? Was it a rough voyage?

HORAN:

I don't get what you say.

SIGRIST:

Was it a rough voyage? Were there a lot of waves, storms on the boat?

HORAN:

No. No, the weather was nice. It was a nice trip.

SIGRIST:

Did you get sick?

HORAN:

No, I didn't get sick. Bridget got sick. She was seasick but I didn't get sick.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember where they fed you on the boat?

HORAN:

Oh, yeah, the big dining room.

SIGRIST:

Can you describe that a little bit for me?

HORAN:

There were long tables, you know, and maybe there were about eight or nine at each side, you know, of the table.

SIGRIST:

What kind of food did they give you?

HORAN:

It was good. We had chicken and beef. The food was okay.

SIGRIST:

Was it used to what you were used to eating in Ireland?

HORAN:

Yeah, it was a little different. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Better or worse?

HORAN:

But it, well, no. It was okay, yeah.

SIGRIST:

What else do you remember about the boat? Do you remember being...

HORAN:

About the boat?

SIGRIST:

Yeah. Do you remember being up on deck at all?

HORAN:

Oh, yeah. The Salvation Army was there. They used to sing.

SIGRIST:

Why were they on the boat?

HORAN:

And one black man, and that really fascinated me.

SIGRIST:

Yeah. You'd never seen a black person before?

HORAN:

Never.

SIGRIST:

What did you think when you saw a black person?

HORAN:

I was scared to death of him. But it's funny how it will stick in your mind. He wore white pants and a, (correcting herself) blue pants and a white coat and a straw hat. Big, husky guy and I really was fascinated. I never saw a colored person before.

SIGRIST:

Was he an employee on the boat?

HORAN:

No, no He was a....

SIGRIST:

Passenger?

HORAN:

He was a passenger. I don't know where he was coming from or where he was going. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

You said Bridget was sick on the boat.

HORAN:

Yeah, she was sick.

SIGRIST:

Did she stay in her cabin mostly?

HORAN:

No. Just one day she stayed in the cabin and then she got up on deck.

SIGRIST:

You said Bridget was a lot of fun. She was...

HORAN:

Yeah, she was lively.

SIGRIST:

Was she fun to be on the boat with?

HORAN:

Yeah, she was. They had dancing there, the accordions, some of the Irish girls had the accordions and the dancing, yes.

SIGRIST:

Did you like to dance?

HORAN:

Oh, yeah. I loved to dance then.

SIGRIST:

You were a good dancer.

HORAN:

Them dancing days are over. (they laugh)

SIGRIST:

Did they have any other organized activities for you on the boat other than the dances?

HORAN:

No, I don't remember anything else. That's all I do remember. I remember I met, there were two, three girls and they came to talk to me and they were from the south of Ireland and they had a very heavy brogue. So I said to them, "I only talk, I only talk English." They were going to throw me overboard. (they laugh)

SIGRIST:

Making friends on the boat.

HORAN:

They were talking English but I didn't know. Yeah they were nice, three nice girls. They were from Mayo. But I never, once we landed we never got together again.

SIGRIST:

The other passengers on the boat, were they all Irish or were they a variety of different...

HORAN:

They were a variety. There were Scotch on it.

SIGRIST:

But they were all English speaking.

HORAN:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's, they were all English speaking.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember any kind of the drills, the safety drills, for your lifeboats or anything like that?

HORAN:

No, no. They had a, half of the time you were getting examined by doctors.

SIGRIST:

On the boat?

HORAN:

On the boat. (a chiming clock can be heard in the background)

SIGRIST:

Well, tell me a little bit...

HORAN:

They'd vaccinate you. It was really terrible.

SIGRIST:

Why were they examining you?

HORAN:

I don't know. I guess if they found something the matter with you they'd ship you back.

SIGRIST:

What kind of examinations were they giving you?

HORAN:

Well, you'd, your chest, you know. And then your hair, if there was anything in your hair. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Did you have long hair?

HORAN:

Yeah. I had long, so did Bridget. Bridget had nice black, her hair was real black.

SIGRIST:

How did you wear it?

HORAN:

I had it tied with a bow in the back, something like the way the girls wear it now.

SIGRIST:

On the boat you said they were examining you a lot.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did they do that in your cabin or was there an infirmary?

HORAN:

No, they had a big room somewhere and then you'd have to go in, take your clothes (she gestures) to your waist.

SIGRIST:

Had you ever done that before for a doctor or anything?

HORAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

How did you feel about...

HORAN:

Oh, I felt terrible.

SIGRIST:

How long were you on the boat?

HORAN:

I, I don't know now whether it made it in six or seven days. Six days, I think?

SIGRIST:

Do you remember seeing the Statue of Liberty when you pulled into New York Harbor?

HORAN:

Yeah, coming in.

SIGRIST:

Yeah, what was that like?

HORAN:

Hmm?

SIGRIST:

What was that like?

HORAN:

Oh, well that was great to look at it, you know, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Where were you when you saw it?

HORAN:

I was on deck.

SIGRIST:

Why were you up on deck?

HORAN:

Well, we usually go up there. I spent most of the time on deck. I didn't like down in the cabin, I didn't. There was more fun on deck than there were down in the cabin, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Uh huh. And when you went by the Statue of Liberty, was there a big commotion? I mean, did people get excited about seeing this? Were people excited about seeing the Statue of Liberty?

HORAN:

Yeah, yeah. Everybody was, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Okay, then what happened? After you came into New York Harbor, then what happened?

HORAN:

Well, then we went to Ellis Island.

SIGRIST:

How did you get...

HORAN:

This man that was with us, he got off the day before. See, he was an American citizen. And the next day was Labor Day and he was an engineer on the Pennsylvania Railroad and he came back for us so it would save my brother the money. And he took us from Ellis Island. But I can't remember how I got to the train from Ellis Island.

SIGRIST:

What do you remember about Ellis Island?

HORAN:

I thought it was terrible.

SIGRIST:

Why?

HORAN:

They treated you like a bunch of cattle.

SIGRIST:

Were there lots of people there?

HORAN:

Yeah, there were like, well, I guess the Irish would go on one side and the different, you now, the different ones. It was terrible. I thought it was terrible.

SIGRIST:

What did you think, what did you think when you saw that big building?

HORAN:

I didn't like it. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

It was very scary. How long were you there?

HORAN:

That I don't remember. We weren't very, we couldn't be so long. We got off in the morning, off the boat. (her grandson enters the room) Hi, Michael. And then, of course, they checked you out, you know.

SIGRIST:

How did they do that?

HORAN:

And then they'd put a tag on you when you get in. I said, "That's what they do with the cattle."

SIGRIST:

How did they put the tag on?

HORAN:

It was a, there was like a, (she clears her throat) I don't remember what was on it but they would stick it on your, you know, on your coat or dress, whatever you had on.

SIGRIST:

When you were going through Ellis Island, did you have your suitcase with you?

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did they check the suitcase out at all?

HORAN:

Yeah, uh huh.

SIGRIST:

What did they do?

HORAN:

Oh, well, they just opened it and looked at what you had.

SIGRIST:

I see. Did you eat?

HORAN:

But I don't remember, now for leaving there I can't remember that. I know we took the train into Philadelphia.

SIGRIST:

And you went with this American man.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

He came back to Ellis and waited for you.

HORAN:

Yeah, he come back, yeah. And then my brother met us there.

SIGRIST:

What was it like seeing your brother?

HORAN:

Oh, it was great to see him.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember seeing him there?

HORAN:

(she clears her throat) Yeah, uh huh.

SIGRIST:

Were you, where were you at Philadelphia? In the train station?

HORAN:

Thirtieth Street.

SIGRIST:

Was that a very emotional time?

HORAN:

Well, we were happy to see him, see somebody your own, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Where did he take you?

HORAN:

Well, he took me to where he boarded and that's where we stayed for three days. And then they got us work.

SIGRIST:

And what kind of work did you get?

HORAN:

Well, I worked for a lady that had a, she had two children. She was a Mrs. Keene [ph], and three dollars a week.

SIGRIST:

What sorts of things did you have to do?

HORAN:

Well, I had to do everything, you know. I had to learn to cook, of course, and you done the wash, clean the house.

SIGRIST:

Was she a wealthy person?

HORAN:

Well, I imagine. Her husband was a travelling salesman, I know that. He was away most of the time. She was a very nice person. She was from the South, very nice looking woman.

SIGRIST:

Nice house? Did they have a nice house?

HORAN:

No, an apartment.

SIGRIST:

They had an apartment. Was it big?

HORAN:

Yeah. It was. It had a big living room and bathroom and three bedrooms and a good sized kitchen.

SIGRIST:

Did you live with them?

HORAN:

Yeah, I had a room to myself.

SIGRIST:

This is the first time you've had a room all by yourself, right?

HORAN:

Yeah, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did you have to wear a uniform?

HORAN:

Huh?

SIGRIST:

Did you have to wear a uniform?

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What was that like?

HORAN:

It was a blue, and a white apron.

SIGRIST:

Did you cook Irish food for them?

HORAN:

(she clears her throat) No, she learned me to cook. She learned, I learned from her.

SIGRIST:

Did you do the shopping for the family?

HORAN:

No, no shopping.

SIGRIST:

What was it like getting adjusted to America? How were things different for you in American than they had been in Ireland?

HORAN:

I really couldn't tell you that. I don't know.

SIGRIST:

Did they have a telephone in the house?

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Was this something new? Had you had a telephone in Ireland?

HORAN:

No. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Did they have electricity in the house?

HORAN:

Yeah, they had electric. And then the one house I went to that didn't have electric, they had coal lamps. That was the next place I went to.

SIGRIST:

How long were you with Mrs. Keene [ph]?

HORAN:

Well, I was only at there about six months, I guess.

SIGRIST:

Why did you leave?

HORAN:

My sister decided to go to New York. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

Well, now why did Bridget decide to go to New York?

HORAN:

She had a boyfriend over there, so...

SIGRIST:

How did she meet a boyfriend in that short amount of time?

HORAN:

Well, she knew him before he came out to New York in Ireland. She knew him in Ireland and then he came to New York, so I was there about nine months in New York.

SIGRIST:

What did you do while you were in New York?

HORAN:

The same work.

SIGRIST:

For the same family all that time?

HORAN:

No, no. I was with, uh, I was in Redbank with a Mrs. Brady. That's the lady I worked for.

SIGRIST:

An Irish family? Was she Irish?

HORAN:

I don't know if they're, she was Irish or not. I imagine there were Irish in her but I don't know. She was very nice. She was a widow lady. She had two daughters.

SIGRIST:

And you did the same sorts of things for her.

HORAN:

And, no, I was the waitress. I waited on the table. She had a cook and a chauffeur.

SIGRIST:

Did you have to learn how to serve?

HORAN:

Yeah, well, that wasn't hard to learn.

SIGRIST:

Who taught you?

HORAN:

You see, you have to learn in a hurry. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

And who taught you how to do that?

HORAN:

Huh?

SIGRIST:

Who taught you how to serve properly?

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Who taught you how to do that?

HORAN:

Yeah, well, naturally they tell you how to do it, how to set the table.

SIGRIST:

What did Dan do when you moved to New York? What did Dan do? What did your brother do when you moved to New York?

HORAN:

Oh, he, he used to live in Philadelphia. So then we came back to Philadelphia...

SIGRIST:

After nine months?

HORAN:

That was it, for the rest.

SIGRIST:

Did Bridget leave her boyfriend in New York?

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What, was she getting work when she came to America? Did Bridget work when she came to America?

HORAN:

Yeah. She did the same as I did, worked for a family, yeah.

SIGRIST:

When you first came, did you go to dances and things? You liked to dance.

HORAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Did you got to meet other people at dances?

HORAN:

Yeah, I went. We, this lady that my brother boarded with, she had girls from, they were from Mayo. And they come in one night and they were going to a dance and they asked me to go. So I went with them. So that was, on Saturday there would be a dance and that would be that.

SIGRIST:

What sorts of people went to these dances?

HORAN:

Oh, just regular Irish people, oh.

SIGRIST:

What would you wear to a dance?

HORAN:

Well, you could wear a dress or a shirt and a blouse. Nothing fancy.

SIGRIST:

Did you, when you first came to America, did you find a church right off the bat? Did you start going to church?

HORAN:

Yeah, the church wasn't far from where my brother boarded and I went to that church. And that's the church I was married in after all the years. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

What was the name of the church?

HORAN:

Saint Agatha's.

SIGRIST:

In Philadelphia.

HORAN:

Uh, huh.

SIGRIST:

Was Bridget religious?

HORAN:

Yeah, she was more religious than me. She was a great prayer. I'm not so good at praying. (she laughs)

SIGRIST:

She sounds like such a wild character.

HORAN:

Yeah, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Well, in our few remaining minutes here, why don't you tell me a little bit about going back to Ireland. You went back later on, right?

HORAN:

Yeah, I went back in '22.

SIGRIST:

And what did you do when you went back?

HORAN:

I just sat around, went in different, visiting different people.

SIGRIST:

Were your parents still alive?

HORAN:

Yeah, uh huh. They were alive when I went home. Bridget never went back, no. Dan was back. He was in the war and he got leave and he went home to Ireland.

SIGRIST:

During World War One.

HORAN:

He was, yeah, World War One. So he was home. So I went home in '22. I was home for about two months and then came back.

SIGRIST:

Did, why didn't Bridget ever go back?

HORAN:

I don't know. She didn't have the money, I guess. (she laughs) That was one very dis...

SIGRIST:

Do you remember how much it cost to go back?

HORAN:

No, and it's funny I cannot remember what they, and it wasn't a whole lot of money. I can't this remember.

SIGRIST:

Did you want your mother and father to come to America?

HORAN:

No. They'd never think of coming over then. Not then.

SIGRIST:

They were older...

HORAN:

Not like now. It's different now. But then nobody, unless you come to stay, like for a visit.

SIGRIST:

But they never had any intentions of moving to America.

HORAN:

No, no.

SIGRIST:

What about other members of your family? Did anyone else come to America to live?

HORAN:

Well, unless, not to live. Tilda came for four, four or five years and then went back.

SIGRIST:

She just didn't like it here?

HORAN:

Yeah, she did but she had a boyfriend in Ireland so she went back and married him.

SIGRIST:

When did she come over?

HORAN:

I just, uh, it was in the thirties but I just don't exactly know the date. But it in the, during the Depression.

SIGRIST:

I see. Just quickly, when did you marry? When did you marry?

HORAN:

'24.

SIGRIST:

And to whom?

HORAN:

Hmm?

SIGRIST:

To whom did you marry? (correcting himself) Whom did you marry?

HORAN:

Michael Horan.

SIGRIST:

And was he...

HORAN:

He was from south, County Leitrim.

SIGRIST:

And had come to America?

HORAN:

Yeah, he was in America ahead of me.

SIGRIST:

How did you meet?

HORAN:

At a dance.

SIGRIST:

In Philadelphia?

HORAN:

Uh huh.

SIGRIST:

And what did he do for a living?

HORAN:

He worked at the Philadelphia Cold Storage. He was a checker or something like that.

SIGRIST:

I see. And you married in 19...

HORAN:

He worked there for thirty‑seven years.

SIGRIST:

And you married in 1928? [sic: 1924]

HORAN:

He died in '66.

SIGRIST:

How many children did you have?

HORAN:

(a chiming clock can be heard in the background) Three. Martha, Katherine, Nicky.

SIGRIST:

I see. And grandchildren? How many grandchildren do you have?

HORAN:

Oh, well I don't know. I've lost track on that. (they laugh)

SIGRIST:

Lots of them?

HORAN:

(to her daughter Martie Hackett) How many? Twenty-one?

HACKETT:

I think we figured.

HORAN:

Huh?

MRS. HORAN'S DAUGHTER:

Yeah.

HORAN:

Twenty one great grandchildren.

SIGRIST:

Wow. Well, let me ask you one final question before we end the interview. Are you glad that you came to America?

HORAN:

Yeah, very happy.

SIGRIST:

How is life different for you here than it would have been if you had stayed in Ireland?

HORAN:

Well, I don't know really. I really don't know. They live over there now is entirely different like it would be in my young days. The girls over they have it wonderful, so I don't know what my life would have been if I had stayed in Ireland.

SIGRIST:

But you are glad that you came?

HORAN:

But I'm, yes, I'm glad I came to America, yes.

SIGRIST:

Good. Well, I want to thank you for (Mrs. Horan coughs) letting us come down...

HORAN:

You're welcome. I'm sorry I can't be much more helpful. (she coughs)

SIGRIST:

Oh, no. You've been wonderful. (Mrs. Horan coughs) This is Paul Sigrist signing off for the National Park Service.