SIGRIST:

Good afternoon, this is Paul Sigrist for the National Park Service, Ellis Island Museum. Today is Saturday, July 2nd, 1994. I'm in Troy, New York, with Joe Bakerian.

BAKERIAN:

That's the boy. (he laughs)

SIGRIST:

Mr. Bakerian is an Armenian, came from Turkey, came to America in 1922 and he was twenty years old when he came. Anyway, Mr. Bakerian, thank you for letting me come out and talk to you. Can we begin by you giving me your birth date?

BAKERIAN:

Birth date? 1902, February 20.

SIGRIST:

That's right. February 20th, 1902. And what, what town in Turkey were you born in, please?

BAKERIAN:

Aintab, Turkey.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell that again, please?

BAKERIAN:

A-I-N-T-A-B.

SIGRIST:

Can you tell me a little bit about that town? What did the town look like when you were growing up?

BAKERIAN:

In the town?

SIGRIST:

In Turkey, yeah, what did the town look like?

BAKERIAN:

Well, it was all right except the Turks, you know. They massacred us 1915. They came in the house. They asked my father's name and, "You better move out in twenty four hours." Where are we going to go? Where are we going to go? So we get out the following morning. They gave us two donkeys to put our, anything we could put it on, you know. So, we traveled. We traveled. They haven't got no train there. And then we went to some place, there's a, they call it Agjagoyan [ph].

SIGRIST:

Can you spell that?

BAKERIAN:

Agjagoyan [ph] So, there's a big (Jewish?), you know, not big (Jewish?), just, anyway, my grandfather,uh, (correcting himself) my grandmother was lame. We put her on the donkey. And when the donkey gets in the water, they don't like. You got to push, you know. Then you got the other side. And then you got to wait until train comes. The train came and we get in it. I don't know how many wagons was, you know, open, open wagon. Just like cattle they put in, you know. Anyway, we went to Aleppo, Syria. From Syria, to Damascus, Syria. From there on, (Dura?). (he coughs) (Dura?) is rough place. The last stop of the train. And then they, we get off. We start to walk. We stayed there overnight in the street. And we went to, they take us to Arabia. We walk but my grandmother they give the donkey again, you know. (he coughs) And we walk. We were seven in the family. Only I'm left. My mother died in my arm in Shefmaskin [ph]. That's in Syria. And my father died in Arabia, in Arabia. The town is named, is (Saudi?). First we were up in someplace that Moses put his cane on the rock. That's the place we were, you know. The boulder came out. It's still there (?) that time. I don't know how it is now. So, we stayed there. And then they take us to some village. You can't stay over there because it's wide open unless there's a tent. And we went to (Saudi?) village. There was only, there was only five, fifteen family, Christian. They are Greek Orthodox. And it was on Sunday we hear the ring, ding, ding. "What's that?" My grandmother doesn't, no, my grandmother died on the way, on the road. So we put her down someplace and my father and somebody else, they helped with, dump, dump it there. And, yeah, (?) and my father was very good Christian and he start to cross. And then we went to church. It was holiday, must be. We went to church and we start to cross and pray, you know. And the priest came in. His name is Horay [ph] Abdullah. I never forget that name. He was a good man. So, "Oh, what's your name?" "My name is Yousif." Yousif, you know, in that book (gesturing to some family documents), the writing Turk, Turks, in Turkey they called me Yousif.

SIGRIST:

How do you spell Yousif?

BAKERIAN:

Just like Joseph. (exploding fireworks can be heard outside in the background of the recording). Hey, don't start today. (he laughs)

SIGRIST:

They're starting the firecrackers early, I think.

BAKERIAN:

Y-O-U-S--, Yousif...

SIGRIST:

(referring to the family documents) I'll check it in the book.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Yeah, so anyway, you're in the church.

BAKERIAN:

So, we went to church, except they don't know anything about us. We say we are Armenians. Well, Armenians, "Erman? Erman? [ph]," they called it Erman [ph]. "Yes, Erman [ph]," Arabic, you know. (he laughs) So, we stayed there about, uh, I would say, until my father start to go someplace else. Anyway, I was only that high. (he gestures) And we lost the mother. We lost the father. We lost my big sister. When I say big sister, you know, she was born after me. And my little sister, we were, uh, the mountain, what was the mountain? I forget, you know. (he laughs) Oh, before you go up the mountain, there was a brook, a little nice brook. And my little sister just started to say, "Mama, mama, mama," and start to walk a little bit, and she died over there. Me and my brother, (?) hand, honest to God I raise my hand. We had, we open the place that big (he gestures) right by that border. And then my father and my brother left, all gone. And we came back to old place. All this, Alhamba [ph] they call it, that big mountain.

SIGRIST:

What was the name?

BAKERIAN:

Alhamba [ph].

SIGRIST:

Alhamba [ph].

BAKERIAN:

(correcting Mr. Sigrist) Alhamba. [ph] So, it was nice place. But my father fall off of the camel and broke the leg because they were to pick up, the people there, they got to cut the trees from the orchard from the, anyway, he broke the leg and came back to old place.

SIGRIST:

The place that you left from in Turkey?

BAKERIAN:

The place, no.

SIGRIST:

No.

BAKERIAN:

Back to church.

SIGRIST:

Oh, back to the place with the church.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, (Saudi?) And we stayed there. And my father died in the, died chicken coop. And we were sleeping in the shop, they called it bakery. We used to call it bakery shop, but they were at small place and they make, they make bread. And we used to, me and my brother, we sleep over there on the floor, nothing on us. I didn't even have pants, pants, you know, just like a shirt. Anyway, we stayed there. But this Horay [ph] Abdullah, he gave us a chance to work. You know what we were doing? He was, he had, uh, what they call that? You don't have to leave any animal, go to the, uh, in the...

SIGRIST:

Like an animal cage of some sort or...

BAKERIAN:

Huh?

SIGRIST:

Like a cage for the animals?

BAKERIAN:

No, no, just animals, the donkeys or horses and, because they had to, they going to, to the, growing the wheat, you know...

SIGRIST:

Like a farm of some sort.

BAKERIAN:

Farm, farm, yeah, like a farm. You don't have to leave animal, go over there. And now me and my brother, nobody else. (he laughs) I'm going to tell you something. Don't laugh. My brother, he was sleeping under the apple, (correcting himself, uh, the fig tree, sleeping daytime. It's hot. We never see the hot water to take a bath or anything, you know. So, you know what fall down from the, one big honey. (he gestures and laughs)

SIGRIST:

Ooh, a bee hive.

BAKERIAN:

Bee, bee hive, yeah. Just big one, right on his head. (he laughs) And that's it. And then 1918 came. They start the airplane come from, I don't know where they were coming. They were British and Germans are running. You can, you can give German soldiers loaf of bread if you have it. You got one good (he coughs) gun. And then they start go all the way down to (Dura?) they start the bombing, English, British.

SIGRIST:

This is during World War One.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, 1918. After that 1918, we came, we went from there, me and my brother, back to where we came from. Not, not Aintab because we had an aunt in Aleppo, Syria. But first Damascus. But anyway, to cut the long story short, he came first.

SIGRIST:

Your brother came first?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, my brother came first because my uncles over here, they sent five, five thousand, yeah, five thousand dollars that time they were in the business, to bring all the Bakerians. I'm in the orphanage. (he laughs) I'm in the orphanage, (?) orphanage.

SIGRIST:

Were both you and your brother in the orphanage before he was brought to...

BAKERIAN:

No, he didn't go. He just went right from Aleppo.

SIGRIST:

I see. And then you were put in the orphanage.

BAKERIAN:

And then my aunt put me in the orphanage. And I stayed in the orphanage until I came to this country.

SIGRIST:

Well, let's back up a little bit to before the massacre. What do you remember about your life before the massacre, before you left Aintab?

BAKERIAN:

Well,...

SIGRIST:

Do you remember the house that you lived in?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, we have the one house. The rain comes, the rain come in and drip in the house. (he laughs) And my mother used to put pan under wherever it comes, you know what I mean?

SIGRIST:

What was the house made out of?

BAKERIAN:

Just, just like a clay, you know. You had one family, one family house. Small, just a small, and two rooms. One on here there (he gestures) and one here, you know. Two rooms. Where you going to sleep? But the other room, my father rented it to a couple, married. (he laughs) And, after the war, I went back to Aintab. They bring us from Aleppo. We were under the tent. We came, they sent us to Aleppo (correcting himself), uh, Aintab. Then we were sent over there and that was it. My number was five hundred and twelve orphan boys. All boys. Then, when we went over there, it comes, my number came out to six, six hundred. And over there we went, I had a cousin in Aintab. Every Sunday he come and pick me up to go his house and have dinner with them. So anyway, it was nice. Nice climate. Nice fruit. Everything is fresh.

SIGRIST:

What kinds of foods did people eat in Turkey? What, what kinds of foods did you eat?

BAKERIAN:

Mostly grapes, figs, apricot, that's it.

SIGRIST:

What kinds of foods would your mother have prepared?

BAKERIAN:

Food?

SIGRIST:

What kinds of things would be cooked? What kinds of foods would you cook?

BAKERIAN:

What kinds? I cook over here, yes.

SIGRIST:

But I mean, what did she cook?

BAKERIAN:

What did she cook?

SIGRIST:

Before the massacre, what did your mother cook for you in the house? What did people eat other than fruit?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah. We eat whole wheat, grind, you know.

SIGRIST:

Like bulgur wheat?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, whole wheat, grind, but it was cooked, you know, and dried up. I'll show you something. (he starts to get up)

SIGRIST:

Oh, no, no, that's all right. We'll look later. We'll look a little bit later.

BAKERIAN:

(he laughs) yeah, so, she make anything. She make eggplant with the meat, you know what I mean, and she make everything.

SIGRIST:

Was there a stove or some fireplace in the house to cook on?

BAKERIAN:

No, just, uh, fires. We say fireplace. That's all. We burn the wood or coal, wood, coal, you know, that's all.

SIGRIST:

What was your father's name?

BAKERIAN:

Hovanes.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell that?

BAKERIAN:

John.

SIGRIST:

Can you spell Hovanes.

BAKERIAN:

Yes, Hovanes.

SIGRIST:

How would you spell that? Do you know?

BAKERIAN:

H-O-N-E-S [sic, Hovanes]

SIGRIST:

And what did he do for a living in Turkey?

BAKERIAN:

Well, he was, uh, he was labor, you know. And then my brother start high school. He get a job in some merchant's office. And my father working now for the merchant. You know what they sell it? They send over this country chest--, uh, pistachio nuts.

SIGRIST:

Pistachio nuts.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, it was coming from our hometown, from Aintab. Each one like this. (he gestures) They selling it in here, what, nothing, no good.

SIGRIST:

So after your brother got the job with this merchant, then your father got a job with this merchant.

BAKERIAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

What was your father's personality like? What was he like as a person?

BAKERIAN:

Well, he was, he was young, got married, I think he was, uh, my mother, at thirteen.

SIGRIST:

Do you know how they met?

BAKERIAN:

I don't know. You know how they met? They were living, I don't know, they were living over, this house and the wall is build up from rough stones. You can see. And my father got nice voice, too. And she, he's looking from this window and she, I mean this home and the girl looking from (he laughs), you know. And one day his (unintelligible), friends, they go out and get drunk. And my father is only seventeen. And my aunt, two aunts, you know, and he got a nice voice, and three friends, they, his name (?) start to drink, you know. (unintelligible) And he start to sing. Right from here you can here the (?). And my aunt says, "I told you don't drink and now you're drinking and you're singing in the street." And the two aunts, they take (he makes a slapping sound), there, bang (he makes a slapping sound), "You want to do it again?" Now, they were going to go see the girl, you know, for him. "Oh, no, no, no. Not again, not again." Now, next week (?) they having another party. (he laughs) They hit him with the board. (he laughs) That's the one thing, they called (us?), you know what I mean? But in this country, now, they say twenty five years old, oh, she's too old. Over there, he ain't got no job. Then he got the job in my time. So, we were happy.

SIGRIST:

So, your mother was thirteen when she married your father.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What was your mother's name?

BAKERIAN:

Mary.

SIGRIST:

Do you know what her maiden name was?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, Mary, Mary.

SIGRIST:

Do you know what her last name was before she was married?

BAKERIAN:

(he pauses) Her name was, uh, what was her name? Oh....

SIGRIST:

Well, maybe it will be come back to you later.

BAKERIAN:

You, you, you asked me something that (he coughs)...

SIGRIST:

What was your mother like as a person?

BAKERIAN:

Oh she was, she was very quiet lady, she was, but good Christian.

SIGRIST:

What did she look like? If you had to describe her in words.

BAKERIAN:

(gesturing) Right there is the picture, over there.

SIGRIST:

Right, but try to describe it for the tape, what she looked like in words.

BAKERIAN:

She looks pretty nice, very nice.

SIGRIST:

What was her size? Was she...

BAKERIAN:

Her size? About four and a half, five. My father was taller than you are.

SIGRIST:

And you said that she was a very religious woman.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Tell me, tell me some of the things that she did that made her religious.

BAKERIAN:

Well, she didn't have no education but she goes to church every time, every Sunday. And my grandmother, too. And matter of fact, our ancestors came from Armenia, now real Armenia now, now we have the presence, uh, president now. I mean, our ancestors came right from Armenia, in Turkey.

SIGRIST:

Now, the grandmother that you're talking about, is that the lame grandmother that went with you?

BAKERIAN:

Mariam [ph], that's Mariam [ph].

SIGRIST:

Is she your mother's mother?

BAKERIAN:

Father's, my father's mother.

SIGRIST:

Father's mother. What do you remember about your grandmother?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, she was lovely. She was dressed, she was making the clothes for Christ--, yeah, Christmas and Easter. You know, we have enough money to get material and she would measure it and, just like evening gown.

SIGRIST:

Did she live with you?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, yes. We all live, we all together like this. (he gestures)

SIGRIST:

What about your grandfather? Was he living with you, too?

BAKERIAN:

I don't remember my grandfather. I don't remember my grandfather.

SIGRIST:

What about your mother's parents?

BAKERIAN:

Mother's, Mother's parents.

SIGRIST:

Were they living when you were in Turkey?

BAKERIAN:

Yes, next door.

SIGRIST:

And what can you tell me about her parents? What were they like?

BAKERIAN:

Same as ours, you know what I mean. They eat the same thing. They talk the same language. That's all.

SIGRIST:

What did people do for fun when you were a little boy in Turkey? What did you do for entertainment?

BAKERIAN:

Well, you sit down and play the beans. (he laughs and gestures) You throw like this. What are you going do? Now in this country the people are spoiled. The kids, they got this, "No, I don't want that." No, you can't do that because we haven't got any. My grandmother used to make ball. We had to, to put the piece of rag in her hand and then turn the, the, turn around just like a ball and she give it to us and we play. And when we went to school, we start to play football. I was a good soccer player.

SIGRIST:

Tell me about going to school. Is this before the massacre or later?

BAKERIAN:

What?

SIGRIST:

Going to school. Did you go to school before the massacre?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, yes.

SIGRIST:

Tell me what you remember about going to school?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, that's, that's wonderful thing. We were walking with the wooden, wooden shoes because we didn't have nobody to buy good shoes. Winter, summer, and I was second grade when I started. First, one school was just build up where we were living about half, quarter miles. I went over there, first of all, start on the kindergarten. And then, then I went to, finish there the school, get diploma. (he laughs) Then I went to another school, not the high school, just (original?) school. Then I start there. I went there until the war started. The massacres start.

SIGRIST:

And were you taught Turkish in school or did you speak Armenian? What, what...

BAKERIAN:

Well, we were learning Armenian.

SIGRIST:

It was an Armenian school?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah. If anybody talked Turkish, (he makes a slapping sound and then laughs), yeah. And when you go to school, you better have handkerchief in your hands and go like this. (he gestures) The teacher look at it, you know, like this. (he gestures) If she see that, uh, if you (?), it's not clean... (he gestures having his hands slapped)

SIGRIST:

She just hit your hands. (they laugh) Well, tell me a little bit about what you remember about when the massacre happened. What, what do you remember happening at that time? You already said that your family was force to leave their house...

BAKERIAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

...but can you explain to me how it all started?

BAKERIAN:

How it started? It started away from Armenia. From Armenia they lost more people than we did, you know. END OF SIDE ONE BEGINNING OF SIDE TWO

SIGRIST:

But in your town, how did it all begin? Did the Turks come into town or, how did it happen?

BAKERIAN:

No, they send a policeman, police or soldiers. They call your father's name first and then they say, "You better move tomorrow morning. You got to move." That's all. That's all I know.

SIGRIST:

And that's what happened in your family. They came in and...

BAKERIAN:

Not only my family. The whole Christians, the whole Christians, not only my family.

SIGRIST:

Were there other people living in this town, were there other religions in this town?

BAKERIAN:

Oh yes, same. Catholic, Protestant and Turks, they had their own.

SIGRIST:

Islamic.

BAKERIAN:

Islamic, yeah.

SIGRIST:

All right. So the family packs everything up and, when you left the town with the burros and your family, were there lots of people leaving with you? When you left town?

BAKERIAN:

Nobody leaving (any more?) because lot of people living there yet, you know what I mean? But my people is all gone, just me and my brother left.

SIGRIST:

But I mean, when you were forced to leave your house, were lots of people all put together...

BAKERIAN:

Oh, thousands of them, thousands of them. Just like cattle, they push us.

SIGRIST:

Was anyone killed in your town before everybody was forced to leave?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, yes. A lot of people they did, they killed. (he coughs) And I know one Turk was hanged up, hanged. Me and my mother, we were in the church and we were going to my cousin's house, my mother's cousin, I don't know, who is she? So, and this guy is hanged. And my mother say, "Oh, look at this. That's a shame" And then an old man Turk says, "Don't say 'shame.' It's good. If they didn't kill him, if they don't hang him, you don't have this child in your hand. They kill him." You know how they find him? These two guys in the business, both two Turks, I don't know what they had, an argument or a fight, they don't speak together. Then they say, "Oh, let's go. Forget all about it. Just come into my house tonight. We have dinner together." And the other guys believes it. Two Turks. So, after they eat and drink, they must have one extra. And this guy, he get, uh, cut his head, his friend's head, his friend. And you know who found the body? My mother's brother-in-law. Cut the arm from here (he gestures), cut the leg from here (he gestures), cut the, everything in different places. And this guy's wife is looking for her husband. "He is all right? Where, where, where is he?" Anyway, you know what he did, they did? They put the head, head in the bag and bring it to Armenian church doors. "Who killed it?" They say Armenians killed it. No, that means, his friend killed it. (he coughs) So, and the priest was coming into church in the morning. He saw the one bag in there. And he called up the guy is always go there first and ring the bell, you know. He say, (?) he name is Joe, for example. "There is a bag over by the doors. Take this and dump it in the, near, down to farm." They find the head. They find the head. (he coughs) And before he was killed, Armenian dentist, he fixed his teeth. They find them (from then on?). "Where, where, where he was?" And he told his wife, says, "If you open your mouth, you will be same thing." If it was an Armenian, maybe they gave him the medal. You know how long it took his (he coughs), uh, case, how long? His case went from Aintab to Aleppo. Aleppo is higher than Aintab, you know. Aintab is only the, so anyway, to cut the story short, they find him. They find him. It took, the case went from Aintab to Aleppo. They looked at it and they, from Aleppo, to Istanbul, Constantinople. When they heard in Constantinople, the order came, "Hang him. Hang him." That's the way they find him. And they find the whole body. My mother's brother-in-law, he pick up the arm and pick up the leg, pick up the body, they put it in that bag and dump it out.

SIGRIST:

That's an awful story.

BAKERIAN:

Yes, awful story is right.

SIGRIST:

You've already told us how your family traveled to all those different places, you know, after you were forced to leave.

BAKERIAN:

Well, supposed, well, if you're rich, you got horse and wagon, you know. If you're poor, you got to walk. Better stay home. (he laughs)

SIGRIST:

And why were you forced to keep moving? Did, did each place that you stayed, did they not want to have Armenians there? That's why everyone kept moving?

BAKERIAN:

Where? In Arabia?

SIGRIST:

Well, you went from Aintab to Aleppo, correct?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Then from Aleppo you went to...

BAKERIAN:

Damascus.

SIGRIST:

...Damascus. And then from Damascus you went into Arabia, correct?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Why did you keep traveling like that?

BAKERIAN:

Why? Do you think we (unintelligible). (he laughs) Do you think we were going around the way we want? No.

SIGRIST:

So you are being forced to move from place to place.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, just move, that's all. Three or four on the horse, on the horses, not the cops, soldiers, they push you. They don't care if you fall down and die. I seen with my own eye, I was only child, you know what I mean, 1902, '15, how many years?

SIGRIST:

Uh, thirteen.

BAKERIAN:

Thirteen years old, yeah. I saw, I saw the German soldiers, a child drinking the waters, he kicked that kid, that kid. So, only a baby like this. (he gestures) Hot, mother says, "Go and have a drink over there," and she goes and drinking, no cup, no cup, no nothing. She goes on her knee and then drink. And this son of a gun kicked him [sic, her?], soldiers, German, because they had allies with the Turks.

SIGRIST:

Were you allowed so much food that you could take with you?

BAKERIAN:

If you have it.

SIGRIST:

If you have it.

BAKERIAN:

If you have it.

SIGRIST:

Because surely this takes a long time to go from these places...

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, yeah.

SIGRIST:

...and if people don't have food, of course, they're dying along the way.

BAKERIAN:

That's right. That's right. That's only this side. We didn't see nothing on the other side. They killed, until you go there, they called "desert." If you go over there on the, out, not on the road, on the side of the road, you can find a skeleton or head. They killed over there, lot's of them. But anybody came into the Syrian side, nothing happened like that.

SIGRIST:

I see. (he sighs) Well, we should get you to America sometime soon here. You and your brother are the only ones left of your family...

BAKERIAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

...after all of this. And your uncles send for your brother.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Is your brother older than you are?

BAKERIAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

What was his name?

BAKERIAN:

Stepan [ph], Stepan [ph], Steve.

SIGRIST:

And where are your uncles in America?

BAKERIAN:

They were living in Troy.

SIGRIST:

They were in Troy, New York.

BAKERIAN:

Troy. 52 King Street.

SIGRIST:

How old was your brother when he left to come to America?

BAKERIAN:

In, uh, he came in '21.

SIGRIST:

And how old was he?

BAKERIAN:

He born in 19--, 1900.

SIGRIST:

So he was roughly twenty one years old, probably.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

How long was it before your uncles brought you over?

BAKERIAN:

Well, I was in the orphanage. Until then, that time my brother start to work over here and he send me the money. Then I came.

SIGRIST:

How long were you in the orphanage before you came to this country?

BAKERIAN:

Uh, I was in the orphanage '18, '18-'22.

SIGRIST:

So you were in the orphanage for four years before you came over?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Were you one of the older children in the orphanage?

BAKERIAN:

Old one?

SIGRIST:

Were you an old, old for the children in the orphanage? Were most of the kids younger than you?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, yes. We were about twelve hundred.

SIGRIST:

It was a big orphanage.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

What town was the orphanage in?

BAKERIAN:

It's, uh, that's, it goes with, I think my orphanage was American orphanage. We were about (?) in that building. Twenty, hundred, hundred fifty about, maybe more. And one night, we had a doorman, you know, the time comes he close the door and he go to bed and, there was three different kind of a thing, flag; Turkish, American flag and French flag. And we get up in the morning, we saw, they took the Turkish flag off and the other ones all (?) pieces. Then...

SIGRIST:

How did you feel when you saw that?

BAKERIAN:

(?) Well, what can I do? What can I do? They were going to, they were going to come up to the roof down to orphanage, down to kill us but the porter, the guy sitting by the door, he had the gun. He, bang, once and then they ran up (?) But he was going to come and open the door and the rest of them coming in. But they didn't, they didn't come. When we said this to Mr. Travis [ph], our principal, then he talked to Armenians. The following day, they moved out from there because that was just Turks joint. And we were hand, hand by hand we were walking on the road and they said, "Oh, we missed hundred fifty lambs." They couldn't kill us. They talking to each other like that but in Turkish, you know, of course. Then we came up the other one, the big one, that's, uh, and then in Aintab they start a revolution in Aintab. Armenians and Turks. But, and this time they were smart. They had everything. They had everything except food, you know, but Jewish people, they had plenty in their house. They feed us.

SIGRIST:

The Jewish people.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah. And mostly raisin and pistachio nuts. They give it to you. (he laughs)

SIGRIST:

Of course, the pistachio nuts came right from there.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Tell me what you knew about America when you were in Turkey? What ideas did you have about America?

BAKERIAN:

God bless America.

SIGRIST:

But when you were in Turkey before you came, what did you think about America? What did you know about America?

BAKERIAN:

(he laughs) I don't know nothing about it. We didn't ever go that far in the school.

SIGRIST:

You had a brother here.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Was he writing to you or...?

BAKERIAN:

No. Just, just a common, uh, writing, you know. he don't say, he don't read about what's going on here, no. We didn't know.

SIGRIST:

Did you want to go to America?

BAKERIAN:

What?

SIGRIST:

Did you want to go to America?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, yes. Sure I did.

SIGRIST:

Well, tell me how your uncles went about getting you out of Turkey. You said they sent some money.

BAKERIAN:

They send, then I get the visa. And the guy who is working in the consul, he was an Armenian, my French teacher. He was my French teacher, Armenian. So...

SIGRIST:

How long did it take to get your visa? Did it take a long time?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, three years.

SIGRIST:

And did you have to have examinations before you left Turkey?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, yes. Because they had examination, if you had trachoma in your eyes you can't, you can't go. You can't come.

SIGRIST:

Was that a common disease for that part of the world? Did lots of people have trachoma over there?

BAKERIAN:

(misunderstanding the question) Not too much, not too much. Not like this country. They don't say you, you don't need this, you don't need that over here, you know. This is this, give you the fat thing and fry the stuff and eat, you know. Over there, whatever you got in your hand eat, that's (?).

SIGRIST:

Now, where did you get the ship to come to America?

BAKERIAN:

Uh, from Marseille.

SIGRIST:

So how did you...

BAKERIAN:

From Beirut, from Beirut to Marseille.

SIGRIST:

So you went from Aintab to Beirut?

BAKERIAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

How did you do that?

BAKERIAN:

Well, they moved our orphanage to Beirut, sixteen hundred orphans. Then we built the building. We built the building. Then start, another one come, they start to build another building for them. Those are young ones. They call them "bird's nest."

SIGRIST:

Bird's nest.

BAKERIAN:

Yes. Those are child like this. (he gestures)

SIGRIST:

So you were already in Beirut by that time.

BAKERIAN:

Yes.

SIGRIST:

How did you take, how did you get from Beirut to Marseille?

BAKERIAN:

You got, uh, boat.

SIGRIST:

What do you remember about that boat trip from, from Beirut to Marseille in the boat? Does something stick out in your mind about that trip?

BAKERIAN:

(he laughs) Well, nothing, just we're happy to get out of the town, get out of there.

SIGRIST:

Were there other orphans traveling with you or were you by yourself?

BAKERIAN:

No we were five kids, five boys, five boys.

SIGRIST:

Who were the other boys? Where did they, were they from one family or...?

BAKERIAN:

No. They are different families. I don't know what kind of family they had. But we were in the orphanage just like brothers.

SIGRIST:

And, uh...

BAKERIAN:

And from Beirut, from Marseille, French airline (correcting himself), uh, French boat.

SIGRIST:

Ship line.

BAKERIAN:

Ship, ship line, yeah. (referring to his immigration records) It's on the, in the book.

SIGRIST:

So when you, so in Marseille, that's when you got the big ship to come to America.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, yeah, to come to this country, yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what the name of it was?

BAKERIAN:

Over, (referring to his immigration records) in the book.

SIGRIST:

Let me look in the little, in the book here because it does say here. (reading from some records) It was the Leopoldina.

BAKERIAN:

Leopoldina.

SIGRIST:

The Leopoldina was the ship that you came on. And how long did it take to get to the U.S. from Marseille?

BAKERIAN:

From Marseille? Twelve days.

SIGRIST:

And what sticks out in your mind about being on the ship?

BAKERIAN:

Well, nothing, just (he laughs), I tell you, the ship you say. We went to, from Armenia, from here my wife and I, there was a tour...

SIGRIST:

This is much later.

BAKERIAN:

Over here.

SIGRIST:

Right, later in your life.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, over here now, yes. We were coming with my wife together and the war start, 1939, August 28th. The war start but the boat that we were going to get before, before that, my mother-in-law says, "Please, one more week, please." "Okay, just for your sake." I was there about seven months, you know. I'll never see them again. "Please, just one more week stay for my sake." I says, "Okay, Mother, we stay." Now, following day we took the boat and we went. And we went following day. Get on the boat. Before we reached Egypt, we turn back. I talk to, I talk to a guy, "Where are we going?" (unintelligible) War, the war. Then we turn back to Beirut, me and my wife. And she, poor girl, never been out from the house. She says, "If the boat gets hit back, you go to the front." I says, "My dear, if we get hit, we all go down." (he laughs) So I said, "Don't worry." (they laugh)

SIGRIST:

Well, when you were coming in 1922, does anything stick out in your mind about that boat trip?

BAKERIAN:

No.

SIGRIST:

No.

BAKERIAN:

Nothing.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember arriving in New York Harbor in 1922?

BAKERIAN:

Well, New York Harbor?

SIGRIST:

Yeah, what do you remember about when the ship finally got to America? Do you remember seeing the Statue of Liberty, for instance?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, just, we went in there and signed our names and out. That's all. (he laughs)

SIGRIST:

You mean at Ellis Island you went in and signed your name and went out?

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember seeing New York for the first time? Did it...

BAKERIAN:

First time I saw New York I says, "Gee, what a tall place." (he laughs) Here, when I went to get married in Aleppo, (gesturing to a photograph) that's my wife over there, and that's my little daughters the other side. I went with my friend on Queen Mary. Queen Mary we went. And we didn't know that when we came up to, what do you call, uh, England, everybody, everybody is, the band is playing and all them things, you know, isn't it? (he pauses) Senator, anyway, when I find it I'll give you his name, (he clears his throat), we went, I went with the Queen Mary. In the war, I stayed in Marseille seven weeks, no boat. (he makes noises with his hands) (secretary (?), secretary (?)), and we went everyday. Time is changing. Now, how you going to walk in there? Everybody got something on their arms, belong to some organization or this and that. And I'm like this with the coat. (he gestures) And on the sidewalk (cooked?) breakfast, me and my wife, we used to do it. (he makes sounds with his hands) I turn, (?) identification card. (?) identification card. "I'm American?" "Oh, is it Roosevelt? Is it Roosevelt?" "Yes, Roosevelt." "Okay, pass." (he laughs)

SIGRIST:

When you arrived in New York in 1922, let's get you back to 1922, what do you remember about being at Ellis Island, if anything?

BAKERIAN:

Ellis Island? I said, "What a building." That is what I said. That's all. Well, I didn't have too much (?) for it to come over here.

SIGRIST:

Did you have to get examined when you were there?

BAKERIAN:

Oh, yeah.

SIGRIST:

What did they do? Do you remember?

BAKERIAN:

Yes, everything, especially your eyes.

SIGRIST:

What kind of luggage did you have with you? Did you have any suitcase?

BAKERIAN:

Just like that (gesturing to his clothes), a pair of pants and a cotton shirt. (he laughs)

SIGRIST:

And then when you left Ellis Island, where did you go? Did your uncle come and meet you?

BAKERIAN:

No, I took the train. I took the train. I had a couple dollars in my pocket. Took the train, they met me in Albany [NY].

SIGRIST:

So you came right up to Albany.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah.

SIGRIST:

Do you remember what time of the day it was when you got to Albany? Was it...?

BAKERIAN:

I don't remember that.

SIGRIST:

Well, Mr. Bakerian, we're just about out of time. I just want to ask you one final question. Are you happy that you came to this country?

BAKERIAN:

Well, I'm glad, very happy. But, now, the time I came, different than now, you know. Now is different. You take the paper at night, you don't see nothing but the rape, killing, look over here (he gestures to a newspaper), right there...

SIGRIST:

It's a different world right now.

BAKERIAN:

Look, this is a priest, this is a priest.

SIGRIST:

Mr. Bakerian is pointing to a newspaper right now. It's a whole different world.

BAKERIAN:

Yeah, a whole different world is right. Before, you take the gold in your head, on your head, nobody say anything. But you can't even walk in the street today. You can't even walk in the street.

SIGRIST:

Well, Mr. Bakerian, I want to thank you very much for letting me come out and ask you questions about what it for you to come to America. (Mr. Bakerian laughs) You told some wonderful stories and I appreciate you letting me ask you questions. This is Paul Sigrist, signing off with Joe Bakerian, in Troy, New York on Saturday, July 2nd, 1994. Thank you, Mr. Bakerian.

BAKERIAN:

Thank you.