LEVINE:

Okay. Today is February 22 nd , 1997 and I'm here in West Palm Beach at the home of Julie Goodpastor, who came from Turkey, who is Greek but came from Turkey in 1921 when she was just a little over two years of age. And with us is Barbara Manaloccus [PH] Posner [PH], who is Mrs. Pastor's niece and is responsible for — for this interview coming to be. And this is Janet Levine for the National Park Service. Okay, Mrs. Pastor came, as I said, from Turkey on the S.S. Alexander. And if you could start at the beginning and say for the tape your birth date and where in Turkey you were living before you came to this country.

JULIE G.:

Okay. I was born, actually, January 21, 1919 and we lived in Pera Constantinople.

LEVINE:

Okay. If you would spell any proper names, like of places or people, because I might not —

JULIE G.:

Uh-huh.

LEVINE:

So is it P-E —

JULIE G.:

P-E-R-A.

LEVINE:

P-E-R-A, okay. And you mentioned your birthday, January 21 st .

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

Now, how is it that you also have the birthday of February 2 nd ?

JULIE G.:

Well, when we came to this country, lived right across the street from the grade school and my sister, Stella, was in kindergarten. So naturally, Mama would go and pick Stella up. And she would take me and I would kind of scoot in there also and play with the toys. And the teacher said, "Why don't you just bring her along also?" So that's how I got to get into kindergarten before I was three years old.

LEVINE:

So in other words, the Jan 21 st birth date —

JULIE G.:

Right, when Mama took me there to enroll me, they asked her name and whatever. She just rattled off Vasiliki Constantinithii . And they looked at her and they said, "We'll call her Julia." And, since they couldn't figure out the birth date, they said, "February 27 th is fine."

LEVINE:

And was it 1919? Did they still give you the same year?

JULIE G.:

1921. 1919, excuse me. Yes. They gave me the same year. That they could decipher but they couldn't read the rest.

LEVINE:

Okay. So it was January 21 st they gave you. Okay. All right. Now, do you have any memories of Turkey at all, being so young, coming here?

JULIE G.:

Well, the only thing that I can remember at this point is that I've been told that I was quite a handful. [chuckles] And I can remember pulling up chairs to the window because at that time the vendors would come by and say — holler whatever they're selling. You know, ribbons, milk, teas, whatever. And I would mimic them and they'd have to grab me away from the thing because I — I have a problem of falling out of things, which has happened in New York. So, anyhow, so that's about the only thing that I remember. Somehow or other, I remember, and I can't figure it out, when we were aboard the ship, that we had to go up some stairs and they would hand us the soap and the towels to wash with. That's it.

LEVINE:

Why don't you tell about how it was that your father came to this country and the whole circumstance around that?

JULIE G.:

Okay. My father, Calius [PH] Constantinitus [PH], was born in Constantinople. Naturally, he is a Turkish citizen, but Greek, and Turkey and Greece are always fighting each other. My father, who was working at embassies all over in Constantinople, Alexandria, Egypt and wherever he was sent, did not want to fight against his own people, because that's what he would have to do, being a citizen of Turkey. So he got himself a position as a head chef on S.S. Alexandria. And he came to New York City and, at that point, I suppose they didn't check on you. But he just jumped ship. He never went back. So he — and he came in 1920, six months before we did.

LEVINE:

I see. Now, what was it about his cousin's papers? What was the story there?

JULIE G.:

Okay. That was it because, in order for him to get out of the country, he took a cousin's papers. They looked very similar. The pictures that I have are — they look almost exactly alike. And he took his papers to get out.

LEVINE:

And —

JULIE G.:

Which was Simeon [PH] Alberti [PH]. That is the name that we came into this country with.

LEVINE:

I see. So when you came in to join your father you came in —

JULIE G.:

As Alberti, but the last name, Alberti, uh-hmm. Yes. And, of course, he was here six months before we were so had already established himself, was working, had an apartment ready for us. So we really didn't go through all of that combustion and whatever was there at Ellis Island waiting to be checked out and stuff, because he was right there to take us.

LEVINE:

So in other words, did you actually go to Ellis Island at all? Or did you just get off the — the ship in —

JULIE G.:

No, no. We were in Ellis Island.

LEVINE:

Oh, you were?

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes. Yes. Remember those turnstiles. [laughs]

LEVINE:

Okay. [chuckles] Now, what — what was your father doing in — in these embassies where — where he was —

JULIE G.:

He was head chef.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

I see.

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

And your grandparents, had they moved from Greece to Turkey? Do you know how long — ?

JULIE G.:

As —

LEVINE:

— the family had been in Turkey?

JULIE G.:

As far as I know, they've been in Turkey, both his mother and father. Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

And how about your mother's side?

JULIE G.:

My mother's side, my mother was born in Mytilini, Lesvos, the island.

LEVINE:

Right, uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Okay.

LEVINE:

And — and what was her name?

JULIE G.:

Her name was Metaxia —

LEVINE:

You need to spell it.

JULIE G.:

M-E-T-A-X-I-A. Maiden name Manolis — M-A-N-O-L-I-S. And her marriage name was Constantinitus.

LEVINE:

And how — do you know how it was that she came to Turkey?

JULIE G.:

Yes, she was 14 when she left the country because she did not want to be a farmer — you know, raise a — herd the sheep and the goats and the — what have you. She had an aunt and uncle in Constantinople. And she left and was actually a nanny for them for a while until she got to working in the embassies.

LEVINE:

And that's how they met?

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

Okay. And do you remember your grandparents, the ones that were — that you were in contact with?

JULIE G.:

I — I don't remember them, per se, as seeing them, you know. But we kept in contact with them for a long time.

LEVINE:

And do you know why it was that you and your — what was it — your sister and — who traveled together —

JULIE G.:

My mother, my — and my sister and I.

LEVINE:

Right. Okay, now, do you remember why you happened to leave Turkey when you did?

JULIE G.:

Well, same as — the same reason for my — as my father did. But, being that he came six months earlier, he was able to establish himself here and sent for — for us and we left.

LEVINE:

Did — did he expect to stay in the United States, do you know? Or do you [unclear] —

JULIE G.:

I believe so.

LEVINE:

— thought he'd go back?

JULIE G.:

Oh, no, no. No.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Did — were there many people leaving? I mean, did —

JULIE G.:

Oh, yeah. That — that — that's — the ship that we were on was just loaded [chuckles] —

LEVINE:

Oh.

JULIE G.:

— from stem to stern.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And did — did — well, you were — you were too young to know what — what your family — what their attitudes were about —

JULIE G.:

Well, I think Mother was —

LEVINE:

— this country and —

JULIE G.:

— was very happy to get out of there, because, I mean, the people — the Greek people were not allowed to speak or go to church or do anything.

LEVINE:

Ah.

JULIE G.:

You see, they had — they had really suppressed the Greek people.

LEVINE:

Are there any other family stories regarding the — the Greek families in — in Pera that you were told?

JULIE G.:

Well, the aunt and uncle that she went to live with was a tailor. And — but then when she's taking care of the children, then she decided that she needed some money of her own. That's when she went to the embassies. However, her mother came from [chuckles] — from Mytilini. They had to take her back. And she probably told her, "No way." But she gave her all the money that she had received and gave it to her. And I guess Grandma was very happy to get the money so she left her there. [laughs]

LEVINE:

It sounds like your mother was a spunky [unclear].

JULIE G.:

Oh, absolutely, until the day that she passed away.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Can you think of any attitudes that she had that she tried to instill in you or any kind of philosophies that — that she wanted you to live by?

JULIE G.:

Well, of course, to — to remember our heritage. And we went to — to church. My father would take us to church, even though it was, what, maybe five miles or six, maybe a little farther than that. Greek churches are not like our Protestant churches or anything else. You have to travel at least 50 or 60 miles to get to one, so that they regularly did what they were supposed to. We fasted when we were supposed to before we went up for communion. We went to different functions. Greek people are great for getting together for music, dancing and — and good fellowship, you know. So we were very much in on all of that, to know that, as family and friends, that we do keep together. Now, being that my name day is Vasiliki [PH] and that's the January 1 st , my father always had — we did — let me backtrack here. We did not observe birthdays. We observed name days. So January 1 st was my name day. Papa, being a chef, he would do all this beautiful food and everything else. And we — it was nothing to have 75 or so people stop in to wish you well and have a sit-down dinner and dancing. Yeah.

LEVINE:

And did that continue in this country?

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes. We lived in Staten Island at that point. .

LEVINE:

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now, you remembered about the towels and the soap on the ship.

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

Was there anything else about the voyage that — that you either remember directly or you —

JULIE G.:

Well, I know that it was very, very hectic for my mother. She didn't speak the language and I was a little — just a little older — and my sister was only three and a half. So can you imagine what she went through?

LEVINE:

And when you got to New York, did your father come — do you remember anything about Ellis Island or were you told anything about that?

JULIE G.:

Well, all I — all I know is that we — we got there. We were — of course, we were — oh, in the first place, the ship was quarantined for over a week because of something. Somebody had — must have had something go wrong. And at that point, I mean they really examined you and sent you back. Not anymore. People just come in this country like nothing. Anyway, we were out of the — out of New York City there waiting until —

LEVINE:

On the ship?

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

And they quarantined the ship.

JULIE G.:

And we spent — the whole ship.

LEVINE:

So nobody got off the ship.

JULIE G.:

Right. And we spent Easter — Greek Easter on that ship.

LEVINE:

When is Greek — ?

JULIE G.:

So that was quite a trauma. It's always after — it's always after the Passover, the Jewish Passover.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, uh-huh. Were there any — did — did your mother tell you that, you know, the Greek Easter was observed on the ship [unclear]?

JULIE G.:

Yes. Well, yes. That's the only reason why I knew it. Uh-hmm. Yes.

LEVINE:

Wow. Okay. So then you got to Ellis Island.

JULIE G.:

Right.

LEVINE:

And what happened there?

JULIE G.:

Well, there my father met us and took us into the — New York City there. And we lived on Ninth — no, between Eighth Avenue and Ninth Avenue on 28 th Street.

LEVINE:

And he had an apartment [unclear]?

JULIE G.:

He had an apartment for us. Uh-hmm. And he was already working in a restaurant. And shortly after that, which I don't have the picture — you're mother hasn't given me one yet that I brought down — he had his own, what they used to call then as a coffee pot. It was just maybe as big as this room. And they just had tables on the side and the — and those turning —

LEVINE:

Like a turnstile?

JULIE G.:

Hmm?

LEVINE:

A turnstile?

JULIE G.:

No.

LEVINE:

Oh.

JULIE G.:

But the chairs. You know, the —

LEVINE:

Oh, a swivel stool.

JULIE G.:

Right — right up by the counter. Yeah, there was maybe a dozen or so chairs right up by the counter and then some tables on the side. And the beauty of that was that after school my mother would take us there and we were allowed to pick whatever piece of pie we wanted.

LEVINE:

Oh. [chuckles] Now, was this the restaurant your father was working in?

JULIE G.:

No, that was — this is his restaurant.

LEVINE:

That was his.

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

How long after he came here did he establish his own place?

JULIE G.:

I would — I would say that shortly after we came. Yes.

LEVINE:

And where was that? Was that in — in — ?

JULIE G.:

In New York City, yes.

LEVINE:

Near 28 th Street —

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

— on that West Side?

JULIE G.:

That was on Eighth Avenue and about 24 th , I believe.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm. And from there, then he expanded and went into a larger, more beautiful restaurant [chuckles] on 23 rd Street.

LEVINE:

Oh, uh-huh. And how long did he keep that?

JULIE G.:

Well, shortly after that, you know, 1929 came along and everything went bust. In the meantime, we used — he used to take us to Staten Island and rent a bungalow in the summertime for us. And that was done maybe about three years and then he decided that he — we should live there. So he bought a piece of property and had a carpenter or contractor, whatever he was — but he also — my father also helped build the house. So when business wasn't that sharp and everything went flat in the restaurant business he was — he learned enough about carpentry that that's what he did for the rest of his life.

LEVINE:

Really?

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

Wow. So when did he give up the restaurant and — and — on the West Side?

JULIE G.:

In — in '29.

LEVINE:

'29.

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And then how about you? You — you came here and you went to school starting at age three

JULIE G.:

Three, uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

Now, do you have any — I guess you were just learning to speak anyway, so you —

JULIE G.:

Not too much. Not — we really did not speak too much English at that point. When we would go to the — when Mother would send us to the store, we'd take the spool of thread or whatever we wanted to show the grocer what we needed.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

And the thing I remember about this kindergarten bit was, I suppose, not knowing how to say what I wanted to say, I would always be put behind the big grand piano in the corner on one of those little chairs, you know, waiting for Mama to pick me up because I had wet my britches. Whether I didn't know — of course I didn't know how to say it — I didn't want to say that I had to or whatever it was, but there I was. That has stuck in my mind.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh, uh-huh. So did you — did you speak Greek? Did you —

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes.

LEVINE:

You were able to speak —

JULIE G.:

Speak. Speak, read, write and — and —

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And how about your — and then you were learning English —

JULIE G.:

Right.

LEVINE:

— in school, I would imagine.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

And was there a period of confusion there with — with —

JULIE G.:

I don't think so.

LEVINE:

— being so young with the two languages?

JULIE G.:

I don't think so because, as I — as it turned out, I mean, in my — I skipped fifth grade, I was so great. [laughs] You know, and I graduated when I was — shortly after 16 years old. So —

LEVINE:

Wow. Now, were there many immigrant children in your school? Do you recall?

JULIE G.:

No, I really don't, honey.

LEVINE:

Were — were there — was there a Greek community?

JULIE G.:

The Greek community there, yes.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

So —

JULIE G.:

And on our church was a Ayios Eleftherios on 23 rd Street —

LEVINE:

Oh.

JULIE G.:

— between Eighth and Ninth Avenue.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

I see. Let's see. How about keeping up the Greek tradition? You said that was important to you.

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes.

LEVINE:

In what ways did — did your mother and father perpetuate —

JULIE G.:

Uh-huh.

LEVINE:

— that image?

JULIE G.:

Well, of course, with all our food, you know. That's one of the most important — not most important — church was the most important thing. Papa would get up early and trundle us in his car, which was a Essex with a rumble seat in the back, and take whoever else wanted to come, because like I said, I mean it was a long distance to get there. Not many people had cars in the first place. So he would go to start the furnace and get the church warmed up. And he always made sure when church was over that everybody had a way to get home. We stop — we sat on the steps of the church until he got back delivering everybody else.

LEVINE:

I see. Now, this was the one on 23 rd Street?

JULIE G.:

No.

LEVINE:

No.

JULIE G.:

This is in Bulls Head in Staten Island, New York.

LEVINE:

Oh, and that's where you went to church when you were young.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

Oh.

JULIE G.:

We went to the Ayios Eleftherios for awhile and then when they built the church in Bulls Head, then we went there.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And, [clears throat] let's see. How — how did your mother fare? I mean, did she try to learn English right away or —

JULIE G.:

Ah —

LEVINE:

— not or —

JULIE G.:

Not right away, I don't think. But at that time they used to have people that came around, especially since she wanted to become a citizen, that they came and taught them to read some and write and, of course, to speak so that, you know, when you went for your citizenship papers you were really questioned back in those days. You had to know about our country before they let you in as a citizen.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. And did — did your mother and father have a social life? Were there, like, social clubs in — in —

JULIE G.:

Just — just —

LEVINE:

— that area that they would attend [unclear]?

JULIE G.:

Just the Greek church. Just the Greek — what — whatever we did. Of course, the Greek people loved to just dive right in and have parties and dances and what have you.

LEVINE:

So the church —

JULIE G.:

In the basement — in the basement of the Greek Church, yes, we would have things.

LEVINE:

Maybe you could spell the name of that church that you were going to.

JULIE G.:

In — in —

LEVINE:

In 23 rd Street.

JULIE G.:

Oh, in — oh. A-Y-I-O-S — Ayios Eleftheras E-L-E-F-T-H-E-R-A-S. And it's still there.

LEVINE:

Ah, [unclear].

JULIE G.:

It was burnt down but it's been rebuilt.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And how about the church on Staten Island? What was the name of it?

JULIE G.:

Oh, wait a minute. Hmm.

LEVINE:

Well, you mentioned the name of the section it was in.

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

What was it?

JULIE G.:

Bulls Head.

LEVINE:

Bulls Head, so —

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

— it may be the only Greek Church —

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes. That was the only Greek Church in Staten Island. [laughs] Yes.

LEVINE:

Do you know why it was that your father — when you were still living in Manhattan — why you went to church in Bulls Head?

JULIE G.:

Well, we — by that time, we had already — in 1926 we moved from Manhattan to Staten Island when our home was built. Okay? So even though we used to go to church in New York City for maybe two or three years, we —

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. I see.

JULIE G.:

— finally went to Bulls Head.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Okay. Now, how did the Depression affect your family in particular?

JULIE G.:

Okay. The Depression was — we didn't — we were better off than a lot of other people. Papa, I guess, got — worked on the WPA, which came out at that particular time when President Roosevelt did a lot of these things.

LEVINE:

Do you remember what he did on the WPA?

JULIE G.:

Well, he was in construction.

LEVINE:

Oh.

JULIE G.:

Yeah. I, myself, had graduated from high school at — shortly after 16 but I was not a citizen yet. I couldn't become a citizen because my parents hadn't become citizens yet. So I couldn't find a job either. And thanks to Franklin Delano Roosevelt again, they had the — the — for the young people, he had a — what was the name of that — the initials on that? WPA.

LEVINE:

It was the Conserva — is this the Cons —

JULIE G.:

No, that's the CCC. That was for the young men.

LEVINE:

Oh, okay.

JULIE G.:

Okay? We had — hmm, I don't have it in there.

LEVINE:

No, [unclear].

JULIE G.:

Oh, what was the name of that?

LEVINE:

CCC [unclear].

JULIE G.:

WRA?

LEVINE:

Oh, NYA. NY —

JULIE G.:

Okay. Oh, yes. National Youth Administration. Right. At that point, they would take you and place you three mornings a week in an office, which I couldn't take. I prefer working with people. So then they sent me on Staten Island then to go to P.S. 46 and be an assistant to the kindergarten teacher, which I loved.

LEVINE:

So you did that for how long?

JULIE G.:

I would say maybe a couple of years. That was three days — three days a week from nine to twelve and we got $21 a week — a month — a month. But —

LEVINE:

And then what? What did you do next?

JULIE G.:

Well, after that then I went into selling. I went into — my first job was at Woolworth's after that, which I loved.

LEVINE:

Were you in Staten Island?

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

And I did just that because I wanted — loved to interact with people.

LEVINE:

Yeah. And how about your sister? How did — how — how —

JULIE G.:

Stella?

LEVINE:

— was her — her school experience and then after?

JULIE G.:

Uh-huh. Well, she was fortunate enough. She got married when she was 17, I believe, but she had already started work as an accountant in Accounts Receivable. Accounts Receivable, I believe it was. She worked for Bonwit Teller and all those big places in New York City — Manhattan. And she stayed there all the time.

LEVINE:

I see.

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

And when did you marry?

JULIE G.:

I got married in 1943 in December 23 rd .

LEVINE:

Okay. But it was before you got married that you became a citizen.

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

Okay. If you could tell in as much detail as possible about going to Ellis Island —

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

— from Staten Island to [unclear].

JULIE G.:

Okay, I started at least three years prior to getting my citizenship papers. They would send me a letter. I would go to Ellis Island. They would talk to me and what have you. But in the first place, I had to pay the $10 tax, the head tax again to come in as Constantinitus. You see, because we came in as Alberti before then.

LEVINE:

How did that — how did that — I mean, was there a problem with that that you were now changing —

JULIE G.:

I don't think so. They never questioned it. They just — I guess they took the 10 bucks and were [unclear] [laughter] at that point. Ten dollars was a lot of money. [laughs]

LEVINE:

So, what was that — what do you recall about Ellis Island those times when you were going out there regarding getting your citizenship?

JULIE G.:

Well, I mean, it was — it was a long — a long haul because you had to — from Staten Island you'd take a trolley car. You'd have to get on the ferry. You'd have to take the subway and then wait for another boat to take you to Ellis Island, right. And this was four or five different times that I had to go before they would — and I wasn't — well, I was 21 years old when I finally got my citizenship papers.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

After being in the country all these years.

LEVINE:

Was that because of the name problem, do you think?

JULIE G.:

They didn't say. They never said anything. [telephone rings]

LEVINE:

Okay, we're pausing here. [tape off/on] We're resuming here. Let's see. Where were —

JULIE G.:

Getting my citizenship papers.

LEVINE:

Your citizenship. Were there lots of people going back to — going to Ellis Island at the time you were going to get the cit —

JULIE G.:

I would imagine, but I don't know how many had to go back as many times as I did.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. But when you would go there [unclear] —

JULIE G.:

Oh, yeah. The boat was full. Oh, yeah. My boat is always full going. [chuckles]

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And what kinds of questions were you asked and what — what — what do you recall —

JULIE G.:

About our country. I mean, we had to know everything about our country and who was the president and all this kind of stuff, you know. And, of course, that we have our allegiance to this country, that we don't, you know, vacillate back and forth to the Old Country and this country, that we were Americans and we weren't — they didn't provide Greek like they do the Spanish now for these people. I mean, we had to learn English. That was our language when we came here. We spoke Greek at the — in home, you know.

LEVINE:

Do — were you the first of the family to become a citizen?

JULIE G.:

No. In fact, I think my mother became a citizen first.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Of all people, she did first.

LEVINE:

Oh, [unclear]. And so when you finally did get your citizenship, was that — was that a big — a big day for you?

JULIE G.:

Oh, a wonderful — oh, of course. Of course. And especially since I waited so long for it. Uh-hmm. Yeah.

LEVINE:

And how about the Greek traditions and ceremonial kinds of things? Did they continue on in this country?

JULIE G.:

Oh, absolutely. They still do.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

And in Staten Island, was there a Greek community?

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Bulls Head was mostly affluent farmers.

LEVINE:

Oh, and they were farming on Staten Island?

JULIE G.:

Absolutely. That's why they built their church where they were.

LEVINE:

And what kind of farm? I mean, what kind of [unclear].

JULIE G.:

Truck farming, you know. Lettuce —

LEVINE:

Produce?

JULIE G.:

Yes, produce. Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

Well, when you look back on it now, coming here as a little, practically, baby, how do you — how — do you think the fact of coming here as an immigrant made a difference in your way of —

JULIE G.:

Oh, absolutely.

LEVINE:

— seeing the world?

JULIE G.:

I am — I am just thrilled to death to be an American because, although we — my younger sister, Sue, took me back to Greece 50 years after.

LEVINE:

Ah.

JULIE G.:

And we traveled throughout Greece and the islands but we were also fortunate to go to Ephesus and back to Constantinople. And of course, like I said before, we're not allowed — maybe I shouldn't even be saying this — we're not allowed to speak Greek or anything. But she did find a taxi driver who took us back to the Patriarche [PH] where my mother and father were married and where I was baptized. And, of course, that was a traumatic experience.

LEVINE:

Hmm.

JULIE G.:

You walk in there and then I went up to the altar and I was just — just crying my head off. [chuckles]

LEVINE:

Huh. Well, Barbara had mentioned before when you were on the phone that there was a lot more to the persecution of the Greeks in Turkey.

JULIE G.:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. They weren't — like I said, I mean, they closed the churches, the schools. The people weren't allowed to speak the language.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

JULIE G.:

So —

LEVINE:

And were — did you ever know about actual violence that was done on the Greeks in Turkey?

JULIE G.:

No, not ac — no, I wasn't in on that [clears throat].

LEVINE:

Okay. Okay, how — when you look back on your life, what makes you feel satisfied or proud of —

JULIE G.:

I'm very proud of my mother and father for having the insight and the guts, so to speak, to take us away from there and bring us to this country where we have the freedom of religion and whatever else that we want to do which is within the law.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

JULIE G.:

And I will never forget and be thankful to them for that.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

JULIE G.:

Back in 1960, with my husband, we moved to a ranch in Hanford, California. And by that time my dad had passed away and Mama came out and stayed with us for a while. And when we bought the ranch and we were raising day-old calves and sheep and goats and what have you, she says, "What are you doing?" She says, "I took you away from there and here you are." [chuckles] Which I knew nothing about ranching but my husband knew. So [chuckles], I mean, that — that — that has stuck in my mind. She says, "I brought you here so you could get away from all that stuff." [laughs]

LEVINE:

Well, now, how did you meet your husband?

JULIE G.:

He was in the Navy.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

And I was working in Stapleton, Staten Island there with a Swedish lady, one of those old-fashioned soda fountains, you — [END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A] [BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE B]

JULIE G.:

Teachers and —

LEVINE:

[unclear]

JULIE G.:

— business people that would come in. And this particular night, I guess Mel — the ship was in and Melvin came in to get ice cream instead of going to a bar. So my lady that I worked for, she called me and she said, "I have a young man here from" — where was that now? Hmm. Well, from — from the state of Washington. Okay. And I was going to go — I was going to leave New York and go to the other side of the country, anyhow.

LEVINE:

Just because you wanted to?

JULIE G.:

Ah, because the Greek fellow that I was going with said if — and I broke off — and he said that he'd kill me if he found me with somebody else. So I just took off. [laughter] Anyhow, so — so, anyhow, I gave Melvin my address and he gave me his APO and numbers and what have you and gave me some things to take to his folks for him. So when I went to visit them, I gave them whatever he had sent to them. And I would send a letter every time I visited with them, sent him a letter. He never wrote. He —

LEVINE:

You — you actually went to Washington. Is that where you went?

JULIE G.:

The state of Washington.

LEVINE:

The state.

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

And he never wrote to his folks or to me, never answered letters. But come the be — middle of December, he sends a wire to his family and said that, "I'm coming home and I have a surprise for you." In the meantime, since I've been visiting with the family — he had three young sisters there, 12, 13 and 14 — they kept saying, "Are you going to be my new sister? Are you going to be our new sister?" And I said, "No, I don't think so. I don't see a picture of a girl on a piano." [laughs] So anyhow, so here he comes in and the girls call me. I tell them. I said, "If he's married, don't call me. Okay?" So they said, "No, he didn't bring anybody home with him." So they kept bantering back and forth. I said, "Is your brother there?" And they said, "Yes." "May I speak with him?" "Yes." He says, "How long is it going to take you to get down here?" Well, I was out in the country in Spokane. And I said, "Well, as soon as I" — I had just come home from work. I worked the midnight shift as Rosie the Riveter. [laughs]

LEVINE:

Really?

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

What years were they?

JULIE G.:

In Brown Industries. This was in '43. Got myself dressed, went down there and I never got out of that house.

LEVINE:

[chuckles]

JULIE G.:

That night he asked me to marry him. I said, "Well, I'll have to think about it." He said, "Well." He says, "You can tell me in the morning." Three o'clock in the morning he's shaking me. He says, "Have you made up your mind yet?" [chuckles] [coughs] So I thought, 'Well' — excuse me. I said, "Okay. But we'll get married on Sunday in church." "Oh, no," he says. The date is December" — he had all this figured out. "December" — he told all his buddies on board ship what he was going to do. I had no idea. He said, "No, we're getting married December 23 rd because I have to be back to the Brooklyn Navy Yard the first, right — first of January. We haven't got enough time."

LEVINE:

Was he — did he get to Washington on ship? Was he — is that part [unclear]?

JULIE G.:

In New Yor — well, he was in New — he — the ship came into New York.

LEVINE:

I see.

JULIE G.:

And then he took a train.

LEVINE:

I see.

JULIE G.:

And came out. Anyway, being — at that time, you had three days for blood tests in Spokane. You didn't have to wait in Coeur d' Alene, Idaho. So we went to Coeur d' Alene, Idaho and were married there with his three little sisters and his mother with her hair being done and all this stuff. It was — getting clothes. It was a panic. But we — everything was closed. It was after five o'clock when we got there so we had to call back all these [chuckles] people to run blood tests, to get the — the Justice of Peace and all that. And they were very gracious. They all came back and did their work — what — it was almost midnight by the time we got married. [laughter] Yeah.

LEVINE:

The then what after you were married?

JULIE G.:

We went — he had to be back in Brooklyn Navy Yard. And we went back there and stayed at the Hotel New Yorker for a couple of days. Then I took him home to Staten Island [chuckles] to meet my folks. [clears throat] They —

LEVINE:

Now, he was not Greek. He —

JULIE G.:

No —

LEVINE:

So —

JULIE G.:

Of Norwegian descent.

LEVINE:

Norwegian. So how did that go over with your family?

JULIE G.:

Well, when they opened the door and there I was, they grabbed me and brought me in, left him standing outside. [clears throat] They questioned me, you know, and they said, "Oh, you married a — somebody from out west. Do you know what's going to happen? You're going to be pulling the plow and he's going to be sitting under a tree strumming a guitar." Now, this is what the mentality of New Yorkers were for out west. Of course, that was not so. [chuckles] But he was in the Navy till 1948.

LEVINE:

And did you then stay in Staten Island or did you go back?

JULIE G.:

I was going back and forth between Staten Island and Spokane, wherever — whenever he was on the East Coast, that's where I was. Whenever he was on the West Coast, I would migrate there.

LEVINE:

Now, was there — during World War II you mentioned you were Rosie the Riveter. Could you talk a little bit about that?

JULIE G.:

Well, [clears throat] I worked the midnight shift and I worked on the part of the wing, I guess it was. And that was our job. We just zip, zip, zip, you know, all those things all night long. And I still have a thing here. The thing went into my nail.

LEVINE:

Oh.

JULIE G.:

And I lost the nail and it's still prob — still problems with that finger but no pr — you know, no big deal.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

But we were — I mean, back then the women were supposed to do all these things that the men did before. And by golly, we learned how to do the things. [chuckles]

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. Was there a lot of camaraderie among the women — ?

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes. Yeah.

LEVINE:

— working in those —

JULIE G.:

Of course, there were some men that — I hate to call them 4F but, for some reason or other, they couldn't go into the service. And they were the head of our departments.

LEVINE:

I see.

JULIE G.:

We got 35 cents an hour and they were making over a dollar. [chuckles]

LEVINE:

And how about your husband? Did he see any action in the war?

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes. He's — was in the South Pacific, North Atlantic, all around the Cape of Africa.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm.

JULIE G.:

He was in all the theaters of the war. He was — he lost many ships. He was a gunner and lost many ships. And the one that was — that he got hurt in was off of Norfolk. The German submarines before the United States got wise — they would come in there and blow the — blow our ships up. And he was over in — he's the only one that survived that — that ship.

LEVINE:

Wow.

JULIE G.:

And he was in a cast. But he never got the credit for anything. He never got the credit for anything or any —

LEVINE:

Hmm.

JULIE G.:

They were in Algiers. Then when the ship was there in that North African campaign and they were supposed to have a blackout. The sirens went on to have a blackout. His person in charge had too much to drink. Most of the men were off the ship, roaming around in Algiers and this thing came on. And this commander wouldn't let him turn the lights off. So he just took his [unclear] and turned them off because the whole convoy would have been destroyed if the lights were on. Now, that's another thing. He got a — he received a — oh, what do they call that? He was brought before the judges and all that stuff and he was —

LEVINE:

Oh.

JULIE G.:

— stripped of everything. Instead of commend — commending him —

LEVINE:

Right.

JULIE G.:

— he lost everything.

LEVINE:

Mmm. Do you remember the name of the ship that was destroyed that — that he was the only survivor at?

JULIE G.:

No, no. No.

LEVINE:

No, hmm.

JULIE G.:

I don't because that was before we got married.

LEVINE:

Wow. Did you have children?

JULIE G.:

Not until he got out of the service. I was expecting in June and the — our daughter was born premature. He got out in March and our daughter was born in May. So that was wonderful and I — and I feel, and I thank — thank God because it seemed like everything that happened to us had a purpose. And although we waited five years to have Judy, and then after the service — then we were in San Diego at the time. And then when he got out and we migrated up and we were in Lakewood, California, which was a big community that just sprung up out of nowhere. And of course, all the servicemen could get a — a loan, you know, and that. And after we had our home, five years later we had Jerry. So to me, it's a beautiful thing that, you know — I watch these dear mothers on the trains going back and forth with the little ones and what have you. They had a — they had a job, I'll tell you.

LEVINE:

And what was your husband's name?

JULIE G.:

Melvin.

LEVINE:

Melvin.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

LEVINE:

And, let's see. Do you think there are some attitudes that your mother and father tried to instill in you that you, in turn, passed along to your children?

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes. Work — work hard and be grateful for what you get. And be sure that you know yourself, you know, because a lot of people don't seem to navigate too well. But we were told that we had to work and we worked hard. When I was 14 we were right close to the South Beach with all the entertainments and restaurants and what have you. And I went to work for a Greek couple that had a restaurant, a seafood restaurant, and they taught me how to open the clams. And at that point — I mean, have you seen clams today when they open them? At that point, when you opened them, it had to be a beautiful clam in there. No raggedy — well, what happened when I messed up one, I got to eat it. [chuckles] So that's been my forte. I mean, I can eat clams on the half shell till I come home. [laughter] Right. And I, of course, was in the kitchen washing great big tubs of dishes and everything else, five dollars a week, 12 hours a day, seven days. Five dollars. But I was grateful, very grateful to get that because that gave me my clothes for school.

LEVINE:

How do you think about your Greek — the Greek side of you and the American side of you? How do you — ?

JULIE G.:

Interact?

LEVINE:

— [unclear] yourself in those terms?

JULIE G.:

Well, I am Greek. I am American first and — and Greek after that. And I try to keep up with as much Greek as I can, although I'm not quite fluent in speaking the Greek language anymore, because Mother and Father have been gone way over 30 years already. Very early. My father passed away at 66 and my mother passed away at 69. And here I am, 78, and I'm still charging around. [chuckles]

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. And how is this period in your life?

JULIE G.:

How is what?

LEVINE:

This period in your life?

JULIE G.:

Beautiful.

LEVINE:

Your children are grown.

JULIE G.:

Very, very nice. Very nice, although my husband is not down here with me. He's up in Oregon because he has shortness of breath and the melanoma [not understood] on his face. Working in construction over 35 years, this humidity and this type of weather is not good for him. However, he's very gracious and allows me to come down because I have arthritis and I don't like all the rain up there. [chuckles]

LEVINE:

I see. So you're what they call a snowbird —

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

— here in Florida. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Right. Okay, is there anything maybe we — we missed, having to do with your family's leaving Turkey and coming here and establishing yourselves?

JULIE G.:

Well, of [clears throat] — no, as far as that goes, I mean, we were all very grateful to be in this country. And —

LEVINE:

You visited Ellis Island. Did you visit?

JULIE G.:

Oh, yes. Yes.

LEVINE:

And how was that for you?

JULIE G.:

Very traumatic.

LEVINE:

Really?

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm. However, they — you know, they got the Great Hall now so that all the turn — all those lines that you had to walk through are not there anymore. But it's a beautiful place and I'm very happy that they got to redo it, and also the Statue of Liberty. Yes, it's very meaningful to anyone that's been back and forth and around.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. Barbara, is there anything you can think of, since you've heard stories all your life, that maybe we didn't touch on that you think would be important to note?

POSNER:

Well, I might say a few things and maybe I could refresh her memory and she can discuss it more, from things I heard from Mom and you over the years. You didn't make mention of it but I — I had heard that Grandpop Calius [PH], my grandfather who I loved very dearly, had assumed the papers of someone — the cousin was dead at the time.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm. Well, we mentioned that.

POSNER:

Yeah, right. I don't think you mentioned that he was dead. The papers, that —

JULIE G.:

Oh.

POSNER:

— he was a dead cousin.

JULIE G.:

Oh.

POSNER:

Yeah, but she said you wrote it in your papers.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

He was dead, right?

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

And was — wasn't it because at the time — I — I have yet to figure out what war it was, but what year was that? That was in the early 1900s. And was that World War I when the Greeks were fighting the Turks?

JULIE G.:

No, this was after World War I because if Papa left Constantinople in 1920 — mid-1920, they were starting in again.

POSNER:

Uh-hmm. Oh, they were starting in again?

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

So I had heard that Grandpop first went to Egypt to work.

JULIE G.:

That was before.

POSNER:

Okay.

JULIE G.:

He was in Alexandria.

POSNER:

He went to Alexandria to work. Was that — a period of time before he left for America.

JULIE G.:

Yeah, before we came — for America. Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

Did he leave Turkey to go to Alexandria to work and then leave from Alexandria to go to the United States?

JULIE G.:

No.

POSNER:

No.

JULIE G.:

No, because, see, Mama had — they had two little girls prior to Stella and I.

POSNER:

I was going to mention that [unclear].

JULIE G.:

And — and they both passed away. And Papa seemed to be not around when this happened, so this was very traumatic for my mother.

LEVINE:

Do you know what they died of?

JULIE G.:

Probably in that time whatever the —

POSNER:

I think it was influenza.

JULIE G.:

Influenza stuff and that kind of thing, you know, yeah. What was going around.

POSNER:

My mom has always said that, because Grandma lost two little girls, she was kind of sold to the Constan — to the church in Constantinople and they had to buy her back again.

JULIE G.:

Okay.

POSNER:

That's quite a custom. I'd like you to discuss it —

JULIE G.:

Right.

POSNER:

— because I find that intriguing. And I've been to Constantinople to see this.

JULIE G.:

Okay. While I'm here at this Greek festival — do we have time?

LEVINE:

Yeah.

JULIE G.:

I was talking to one of the parishioners and her last name is Habib [PH]. And I said, "Where are you from?" She says, "Well." She says, "My husband was from Egypt." She's Greek. Her husband's from Egypt. And she says — and I said, "Your name is Stella and I have a sister by the name of Stella." And she proceeded to tell me that her mother lost the first two children also. And she said, "That's why I'm named Stella and probably your mother named your sister Stella, because Ayo Stylianos is the protector of infants. So in other words, these — both ladies lost the first two so they brought him to — brought them to him.

POSNER:

The name of the saint was Ayo Stayos .

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

So was — was — my mother told me that she had to be bought back from the —

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

From — wasn't — what's that big church in Constantinople [unclear]?

JULIE G.:

That's the Patria-- Pa-- Oh, Aya Sophia .

POSNER:

Aya Sophia?

JULIE G.:

Well, she probably had to go to the Patriarche, I would imagine.

POSNER:

Yeah, there was a certain amount of money paid —

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

— to get her back from the church because it — there was some sort of a custom. If you lost children, you told the church or you told God. And if you had a child that lived, that the child would belong to the church.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

And when a child lived, the child belonged to the church. And then in order to get the freedom of the child, the child had to be bought from the church for a certain amount of money. And I've always heard that story. I don't know how much it cost or who bought my mother back, but somebody bought my mother back from the church, so I was hoping you would know something —

JULIE G.:

Well, yeah.

POSNER:

— more about it.

JULIE G.:

No. Well, you know, this is Old Testament because the Israelites, their first-born was always dedicated to God. And in order to get the child back, they had to give an offering. So the Greek people must have continued with that part of it.

POSNER:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. I always heard stories from my mother about my grandmother having — being alone with you two and that they were killing Greeks in the streets, and that my grandmother had to hide out and they had no food to feed you, and that neighbors helped to get milk to feed the children. Do you remember any of that?

JULIE G.:

No.

POSNER:

Because my Mom's told me stories of that.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

That there were atrocities against the Greeks —

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

— in the streets of Turkey and that Grandma had to hide out.

JULIE G.:

I wouldn't doubt it.

POSNER:

And they were very anxious to get out of Turkey.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

The Greek people were very —

JULIE G.:

Sure.

POSNER:

— anxious to leave Turkey, you know. So — and then I always heard — do you remember the stories of Mom being left-handed when she went to school in America and that they used to beat her?

JULIE G.:

[unclear] They did the same — they did the same thing to your mother.

POSNER:

Yeah, my mom always said —

JULIE G.:

[chuckles]

POSNER:

My mom always said that, right.

JULIE G.:

Left-handed people. You know, back then they didn't allow you to do that. They wanted you to use your right hand so you got a [makes smacking sound]. Man, they really whacked you so that you can really learn —

LEVINE:

Did you — did you have a good experience with your teachers —

JULIE G.:

Oh, yeah.

LEVINE:

— in school generally?

JULIE G.:

I did, uh-huh. I was — I wasn't left-handed. I mean, I — [chuckles] so, yeah.

LEVINE:

Do — do you —

JULIE G.:

And with the kids, you know, because they helped me a lot, really.

LEVINE:

Did you — were you called a greenhorn or any of that —

JULIE G.:

No.

LEVINE:

— kind of thing?

JULIE G.:

No.

POSNER:

Were there a lot of other immigrant children in class with you?

JULIE G.:

I don't know.

POSNER:

You don't remember. Yeah.

JULIE G.:

I don't know.

POSNER:

Do you remember the name of the ship when you met Uncle Mel in Staten Island when you were working in that shop?

JULIE G.:

No.

POSNER:

I was wondering if you remember the name of the ship that he was on. That was 1943.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

We were right in the midst of World War II —

JULIE G.:

Oh, absolutely —

POSNER:

— at the time.

JULIE G.:

Absolutely.

POSNER:

So he was there on a — on a Navy ship in the Navy —

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

— and it was already World War II.

JULIE G.:

Oh, def — yeah, he was in since '41 — before '41, before they started Pearl Harbor. You know, just as this was all coming to a head, he had enlisted.

LEVINE:

And what are the Greek customs or ceremonial kinds of things that you — that persist for you, that you carry on?

JULIE G.:

Well, I go to the church itself. Now, they have — if a person passes away, after 40 days they have what they call a —

POSNER:

Mnimosimo ?

JULIE G.:

— mnimosimo . And that is they bring a platter -- big, or however size they want, to memorialize that person. And the priest says prayers and what have you with the congregation. It's made of wheat.

POSNER:

Coliva .

JULIE G.:

And it's called coliva .

LEVINE:

How do you spell it?

JULIE G.:

C-O-L-I-V-A, I would think. And it's got powdered sugar and almonds and raisins and what have you, and then they distribute that to the — the people there.

POSNER:

It's delicious.

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

LEVINE:

And what was the first word you said, what you called this ceremony?

POSNER:

Mnimosimo.

JULIE G.:

Mnimosimo.

LEVINE:

Could you spell that one?

JULIE G.:

M-N-I-M-O-S-I-M-O. [chuckles]

LEVINE:

Okay, anything —

JULIE G.:

Okay.

LEVINE:

— else that you can think ---?

JULIE G.:

Well, there's these Greek festivals, you know. And, of course, after church service there's always a coffee hour so that you can get together and have fellowship with your people.

POSNER:

And what about Greek Easter with the dyeing the eggs red?

JULIE G.:

Greek Easter. Right. We have Greek Easter, of course, which follows Passover. And they — we have a beautiful service for Good Friday. It's always in the evening, late evening. They have the —

POSNER:

Bier.

JULIE G.:

— bier, yeah. B-I-E-R.

LEVINE:

Oh.

JULIE G.:

That they have. They take the —

POSNER:

Icon.

JULIE G.:

— icon of Christ and put it in this bier. And it's elevated and everybody goes out under it and processes around the whole church and then comes back in again. And it's after midnight for that. Then on — for Easter — then that's Friday night. Saturday night at midnight is when they have the Anastasi [PH] where Christ is risen again. So one person — again, money comes in. Whoever pays the most, offers the most money, gets to carry the cross without Jesus on it, because he has resurrected. Okay? And we all follow all around with candles all around again, come in and when the service is over we get that bright red Easter egg.

POSNER:

Which signifies rebirth.

JULIE G.:

Yeah, yeah. Right, absolutely. Yes, yeah.

LEVINE:

And the blood, I imagine —

JULIE G.:

Yes.

LEVINE:

— of Christ. Uh-huh.

POSNER:

But they turn off the lights in the church at midnight.

JULIE G.:

Yeah, the dark.

POSNER:

And then someone gets —

JULIE G.:

Get the candles.

POSNER:

Everyone has candles in the church. And they take the light from the altar — is that where it comes from?

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

POSNER:

And everybody — the light is — the flame is —

JULIE G.:

Passed around.

POSNER:

— passed throughout the whole church. And then everyone has candles and then the procession goes around the church outside. They do this — they have night services for the whole week preceding Easter. Every night during the week, Holy Week, and they have different services on — the Wednesday before Easter they have the holy oil, the blessing.

JULIE G.:

Oh, okay.

POSNER:

Can you talk about that?

JULIE G.:

Oh, no. That one I don't know.

POSNER:

They — they bless with the holy oil.

JULIE G.:

Oh, with the holy oil? Oh.

POSNER:

Yeah. And each night they have different services. And then they have Holy Thursday and they have — then they have Good Friday and then they have the Saturday. And —

JULIE G.:

[clears throat] And Sunday, of course, is a big to-do then.

POSNER:

Big Easter.

JULIE G.:

A lot of the — a lot of the times they have — they go to different parks and have them and roast whole lambs on spits —

POSNER:

The whole —

JULIE G.:

— and what have you and have dancing and have a great time.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh. And how about the instruments? Do — do you —

JULIE G.:

Oh, yeah.

LEVINE:

— still have the —

JULIE G.:

Uh-huh.

LEVINE:

— instruments from the —

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

[unclear]. Greek music and dancing —

JULIE G.:

Yes.

POSNER:

— is very important, all the different Greek dances. Different dances come from different parts of Greece. They do all the different dances. Maybe you can tell her the name of some of the dances, the Hasapiko [PH], the Sambekiko [PH].

JULIE G.:

Well, that's all —

POSNER:

You dance them all so well.

JULIE G.:

I know, but they dan — you should see what — you should see what they dance now, these young kids that they teach 'em. We just had the Hasapiko, Sambekiko — what's the one with the —

POSNER:

Sitda [PH]? [snaps fingers] Sitda .

JULIE G.:

Yeah, the Sitda and the — [chuckles] what's the one that I do? [laughter] Oh, gosh. Anyhow, whatever.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

You know, they follow, really strictly follow all the traditions of the Greek people, the Greek churches here, everywhere in the United States. They keep up with the traditions and it's wonderful.

POSNER:

And the foods —

JULIE G.:

Oh, yeah.

POSNER:

The food is so very important.

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

And we all cook the Greek foods. That's all [unclear].

JULIE G.:

Lamb shanks and orzo . Oh, that's my downfall.

LEVINE:

Orzo . [chuckles]

JULIE G.:

Uh-hmm.

POSNER:

And baklava and kourambithes [ph]

JULIE G.:

Yeah.

POSNER:

All the — the Greek pastries.

JULIE G.:

And all the Greek pastries. Everybody knows all that stuff.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

JULIE G.:

Not only the Greek people.

LEVINE:

Okay.

JULIE G.:

They all know that.

LEVINE:

Okay.

POSNER:

And Grandma — my Grandma Metaxia —

JULIE G.:

[unclear].

POSNER:

— carried the traditions from Greece. She used to take me to church when I was very small. My mother would leave me weekends on Staten Island [unclear]. And Grandma used to take me to all the — church every weekend and all during Easter. For all hours, we would stand because in Greek church they — the services are at least three hours. And you don't sit. So most of my youth was spent standing with Grandma —

JULIE G.:

The men on one side —

POSNER:

— in a Greek Church.

JULIE G.:

— and the ladies on the other.

LEVINE:

Uh-huh.

POSNER:

For hours of standing. And now, I — my children complain when they go to the shortened service at church. And they're allowed to sit. And, in fact, in Greece, when I went to Greece and lived there, there are churches in Greece that have no seats.

JULIE G.:

No seats at all. Right.

POSNER:

They don't even have seats. People just stand. We're so lazy.

JULIE G.:

All the orthodox churches, there was no seats. Russian — Russian Orthodox — even in this country, everybody stands.

LEVINE:

Uh-hmm. How about the difference between the men and the women in the Greek Church?

JULIE G.:

Oh, the men think they're macho. [laughter]

LEVINE:

Yeah.

JULIE G.:

Wherever they are.

LEVINE:

[chuckles] Yeah, I guess that's [laughter] — okay. Well, I think maybe we've covered —

JULIE G.:

Okay

LEVINE:

— covered it pretty well. I want to thank you.

JULIE G.:

Oh, you're welcome darling.

LEVINE:

[unclear].

JULIE G.:

Can I fix you a cup of coffee or something?

LEVINE:

I think I need to —

JULIE G.:

You have another.

LEVINE:

— take off.

JULIE G.:

Okay.

LEVINE:

And thanks, Barbara, for being here and contributing to this. This is Janet Levine for the National Park Service. I've been speaking with Julie Goodpastor and it's February 22, 1997 and we're here in West Palm Beach, Florida. Now, at the time of this interview, you are 8 — 78?

JULIE G.:

I will — on the 27 th I will — well, I've already said, but on the 27 th is when [chuckles] I will be 78.

LEVINE:

Right, right. Okay. Signing off. [END OF INTERVIEW]