MOORE:

Good morning. This is Kate Moore for the National Park Service. Today is July 9, 1994 and I'm in Bountiful, Utah at the home of Lorene - Lorene Mannis -- with Sovena Bradshaw who came to the United States from Sabena - which is now Yugoslavia - then a part of Austria- Hungarian Empire - when she was - to the United States - when she was two years old. Why don't you begin by giving me your full name and date of birth please.

BRADSHAW:

Well my name right now is Sovena, S-O-V-E-N-A, and um, that's the take-off of Szabina, which is the Hungarian - the German version. And so I - I don't know how you want to identify me - whether you want to Szabina or Sovena.

MOORE:

Szabina is your former name, is it?

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And how do you spell that?

BRADSHAW:

S-Z-A-B-I-N-A.

MOORE:

And what was your maiden name?

BRADSHAW:

Uh Keller, um - wait a minute. My maiden name - you know I haven't used that for so long. Um, hmm, what was my maiden? My - my father's name was Hof, H-O-F.

MOORE:

H-O-F, ok. Alright so um, what date were you born?

BRADSHAW:

April 10, 1907.

MOORE:

April 10, 1907. Now what was the town where you were born, the name of the town?

BRADSHAW:

Yosefalva.

MOORE:

Could you spell that?

BRADSHAW:

Y-O - it's uh Y-O-S-E-F-A-L-V-A, I think. Yosefalva.

MOORE:

Ok and the place - the county that you were born in - do you know that?

BRADSHAW:

I don't know whether they divided the - the areas into counties.

MOORE:

Alright regions. What was the nearest largest town to where you lived?

BRADSHAW:

Hmm. (clears throat) I don't - I'm not sure that I (pause) - I know that.

MOORE:

That's alright, that's alright. What - do you know what size town that was? You came over when you were two years old so you're pretty young but -

BRADSHAW:

Yeah. Well I don't remember anything back there. I mean just what people have told me.

MOORE:

Uh huh. And what did your family tell you the town was like and the industry? Anything about the town?

BRADSHAW:

Yes, my - my mother used to operate a um - um - saloon (laughs), you know. My father was a - a builder and he built quite a few um, cathedrals in the area down there and in - but my mother used to operate the - the saloon.

MOORE:

And what was your father's name?

BRADSHAW:

Jacob.

MOORE:

J-A-C—

BRADSHAW:

O-B.

MOORE:

O-B, ok. And his occupation was a builder. Could you describe what your father looked like? How would you describe him to someone who hadn't seen him?

BRADSHAW:

Well m—well I'd see him, you know.

MOORE:

For the tape reasons, recording.

BRADSHAW:

Yes, well he was a small man and very feisty, you know. And he was very proud.

MOORE:

And you say small - how small is small?

BRADSHAW:

Well, short.

MOORE:

Five foot—

BRADSHAW:

Uh, five feet?

MOORE:

Uh huh.

BRADSHAW:

Probably and um, he um - well I don't know how I - how to describe him except that he was a small man.

MOORE:

How 'bout his eyes and hair?

BRADSHAW:

Um, his eyes were blue and his - I was his favorite child (laughs). So uh, um, even I learned to dislike him because he was - he was so mean to my mother. You know the men had no consideration for their wives over there. And so he was mean to my mother.

MOORE:

Is there a story that you associate with your father from your childhood that y—sticks out in your mind about your father?

BRADSHAW:

Well, of course he was always special to me because I was his favorite. And um—

MOORE:

Just a second let me adjust this.

BRADSHAW:

So, uh - I don't know - well, he always sort of favored me. You know because I was - I was number two child. And there were only two of us when we came to the United States. And um, one of the things that I remember mother used to tell me was that everybody on the boat was sick -- you know, seasick -- except me. I was a little tyke, you know. And um, I would - I'd just run all over the boat and the sailors would um, you know play with me and - and -

MOORE:

Hold on for just a second. I want to change the microphone.

BRADSHAW:

What - what was I telling you about?

MOORE:

The sailors would play with you on the boat and -

BRADSHAW:

Yes, um, and it seemed - from what I can gather I was the only one that wasn't seasick! You know, the others were all seasick and most of 'em down in the hold and um, the rest of my family were seasick but I was running around playing with the sailors (laughs).

MOORE:

What was your mother's name?

BRADSHAW:

Rose - Rosa, Rosa.

MOORE:

And what was her maiden name, do you remember?

BRADSHAW:

Um, Keller.

MOORE:

Keller. Ok K-E—

BRADSHAW:

L-L-E-R.

MOORE:

L-L-E-R. And what was her occ—you said she - she kept a saloon. Was she a owner of the saloon or did she work in the saloon?

BRADSHAW:

Well I think th—my folks probably owned the saloon. Th—there were a lot of these small saloons, you know in the different areas (laughs).

MOORE:

What did your mom look like? How would you describe her?

BRADSHAW:

Well I - I think I look - I look a great deal like her.

MOORE:

And wh—how - how would you describe her then? For tape?

BRADSHAW:

Well now she was - she was heavyset. I mean, she wasn't slight. And um, of course the women in those days had to be pretty husky in order to do all the work that was required of them. And um, my mother had to work out in the fields and then she'd have to work in the saloon, you know, and so um, they were - they were driven pretty hard, as far as work was concerned.

MOORE:

And what about her hair and her eyes? Do you remember the color?

BRADSHAW:

Well she had brown hair and of course it went gray, like mine, quite early. And um, well if I'd known I could've had a picture of her (laughs).

MOORE:

That's alright. What about her personality? What do you - how would you characterize your mother in terms of temperament?

BRADSHAW:

She was very kind and understanding. She - she was good to everybody. She - she wasn't temperamental at all. And she of course was willing to do most anything to get over to America, you know.

MOORE:

So she was eager to come.

BRADSHAW:

She what?

MOORE:

Was eager to come here.

BRADSHAW:

Yes, oh yes. And she took any kind that abuse of my father threw at her, you know, just so he would bring her over here. And of course she didn't want to stay here. She thought that she would just come here and enjoy what she could and - and then go back and uh - assume his place at the head of the household. You know the men in those days were very domineering and um - the - the women had practically no say as to what happened in the household. The men, you know, would beat their wives. That was a common - I don't think my father beat my mother very often, if at all, but he used profanity a great deal. So um—

MOORE:

He was very forceful in his language to your mother?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah, yeah. And I don't know too much a—um, I've seen pictures of them and they're nice looking people but I don't know much about their history and I don't know [recording skips] professionally, and so um, I don't know whether I can tell you very much a—along that line.

MOORE:

What about your brother - brothers and sisters now? You have one older - you have brothers or sisters?

BRADSHAW:

Well um, my sister Em - Emma - was the oldest, and I was next.

MOORE:

And old - much older than you was she?

BRADSHAW:

Probably couple years.

MOORE:

And then you have a younger sister.

BRADSHAW:

Yes, the ones that's here.

MOORE:

And her name is?

BRADSHAW:

Lorene, L-O-R-E-N-E.

MOORE:

Yeah, L-O-R-E-N-E. And how much younger is she?

BRADSHAW:

Well, she's quite a bit younger. Um—

MOORE:

[interposed] You said thirteen years, a moment a go. Is that - is that correct?

BRADSHAW:

That's about right.

MOORE:

Mhmm. Um, now do you know anything about your house back home? Now you came early, when you were two years old. What - what did your family tell you about your house where you lived in—

BRADSHAW:

Over - over in Europe?

MOORE:

Yeah.

BRADSHAW:

They didn't um - they didn't tell - tell very much. So I don't think we had a very pretentious house (laughs).

MOORE:

And - and did um - do you have anything surviving from that house here? Any religious artifacts, any keepsakes?

BRADSHAW:

[superposed] No, about the only thing that I have and of course I don't have it here is my baptismal certificate.

MOORE:

Mhmm.

BRADSHAW:

And that was a - a Catholic.

MOORE:

Mhmm.

BRADSHAW:

Um, baptismal certificate. And I still have that. Of course it's in my home down in um, California.

MOORE:

Right well, now you mentioned that your mother worked in fields. Whose fields were those?

BRADSHAW:

Well they um - I do—I don't know the arrangement that they had but they would hire the peasants. You know, to come in and uh - and uh - reap the - the fields. And um, professional man course was supposed to be a professional man so he didn't [not understood] in the fields very much but my grandfather - my mother's father - he and his family were um, reapers in fields. Um, I was - I was going to s—

MOORE:

You mentioned earlier that your mother and father were different classes.

BRADSHAW:

Yes. My mother was of a peasant uh - class - and my father was the hierarchy, you know. He was professional. He had professional training, he was a carpenter. And um, a builder. And so um, he always loitered it over my mother. You know that was - that was what those people - th— that's how they g—won their recognition, I guess. Um, they were of a different class and—

MOORE:

Mhmm. Now, who did the cooking in your family?

BRADSHAW:

Who did the cooking? My mother.

MOORE:

And what was your favorite food as a child.

BRADSHAW:

Uh, well their - they - they've made out of - that - they've made out of flour and water you know and - and salt. Th—they ate most anything (laughs), you know. They didn't have any particular - anything that was available why they - [not understood] fixed in the food and um—

MOORE:

Now do you have any anecdotes about your mother from your childhood at all?

BRADSHAW:

Well my mother was a sweet lady. She was kind and she was good to her s—children. And uh, now we didn't suffer at the hands of my parents very much. The worst that we suffered was my father - he always used profanity in his language.

MOORE:

Mhmm. Is there a funny story about your mother? Anything you remember that she did?

BRADSHAW:

Well, um, she was um, you know th—they—the people - the adults - took their children and sort of farmed them out to do work in the um - um - in the hierarchies' homes, you know. And um, I don't know what to tell you about that.

MOORE:

Did she farm your sister out at all? Or are you too young when you left? Were any of - you were two years old [recording skips] to other families to work.

BRADSHAW:

Uh huh well, no. My sister was only about a year or two older than I.

MOORE:

I see, ok.

BRADSHAW:

And we were the only ones in the family.

MOORE:

Alright um, now tell me about religious life in the old country. What religion were you?

BRADSHAW:

Catholic.

MOORE:

Mhmm. And um, did your parents both practice?

BRADSHAW:

Well if there was any practicing of religion, yes.

MOORE:

Did they go to church on Sundays?

BRADSHAW:

Not always.

MOORE:

Not always, ok. And were you taught prayers before you went to bed?

BRADSHAW:

Yes.

MOORE:

And how 'bout grace before a meal? Did you say grace?

BRADSHAW:

Before a meal, yeah.

MOORE:

You said - you said a prayer.

BRADSHAW:

[superposed] Yeah, uh huh.

MOORE:

Ok. Um, what about holiday celebrations? Do you remember any ones were your favorites?

BRADSHAW:

No but you know my um - my parents operated a saloon and my mother tended the saloon while my father was building homes. So I mean that was the way the family went.

MOORE:

So where - when she was in the saloon, where was your sister?

BRADSHAW:

Well?

MOORE:

With whom - who was taking care of your sister?

BRADSHAW:

[not understood] We were - we were in the saloon too.

MOORE:

(laughs)

BRADSHAW:

You know (laughs), that was the only place that we had. I mean most of our um - operations - whatever we did - was in one building, you know. And it would be the saloon and it would be the home and everything.

MOORE:

I see. So um, how did your family get here? Whose idea was it?

BRADSHAW:

Oh it was my mother. My - my - my mother's father was the first of the clan to come to America and then he - any one of his children that wanted to come to America he would pay the um - the fare for them. And they settled in Lefor, North Dakota.

MOORE:

How do you spell Lefor, do you know?

BRADSHAW:

L-E-F-O-R.

MOORE:

Lefor, North Dakota.

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And what was there that took - that brought them there? What was in Lefor that - why Lefor, North Dakota?

BRADSHAW:

J—just because it was open to immigration and the United States was encouraging the people to come over, you know. And it was settled and the homesteads.

MOORE:

And what did he do - your grandfather - then?

BRADSHAW:

Well my grandfather was quite um - um - well I—I think he was quite clever because he um - learned how to make shoes for his children and he wasn't a shoemaker, you know. And um, he just - he just made everything that he could with the clothing that they could and he um - well, I don't know what to tell you.

MOORE:

So he came first and he paid - so did he pay for your mother and your father to come?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

He paid for them?

BRADSHAW:

Well I think so -- I think so. I'm not sure about that. But—

MOORE:

Certainly he encouraged your mother to come.

BRADSHAW:

No my mother encouraged (laughs) my father to come.

MOORE:

I see.

BRADSHAW:

He didn't want to come.

MOORE:

Your father didn't want to come.

BRADSHAW:

No, he didn't want to come to America.

MOORE:

Why not?

BRADSHAW:

Because everybody knew - everybody in the world at that time knew that the - in America the men couldn't beat their wives like they could in the other countries (laughs).

MOORE:

You think that's true? I mean that's what they told you?

BRADSHAW:

[superposed] Yes, yes mother said it was true. Now my father didn't beat my mother very much. I think he did a few times but um, not very often. His - his um, bad part was he used swear words a great deal.

MOORE:

Mhmm. So um, now do you - did your parents ever tell you about getting ready to come? Your mother persuaded your father—

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] Yeah.

MOORE:

And what happened to the saloon and to h—your father's business?

BRADSHAW:

I don't know - that I don't know.

MOORE:

Now did your mom say anything about the voyage over? You were such a small kid but -

BRADSHAW:

Yes. Um, they were in the hold of the - of the ship that they came - came over in.

MOORE:

Do you remember the name of the ship that you came on?

BRADSHAW:

I used to know it but I don't remember now.

MOORE:

What port did they come from?

BRADSHAW:

Uh, Fiume.

MOORE:

Fiume, Italy.

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

F-I—

BRADSHAW:

F-I-U-M-E - E.

MOORE:

U-M-E, right - Italy. And they had to get from the town to the boat. Do you know how they did that?

BRADSHAW:

No, no I don't.

MOORE:

Ok. And so they came - you said they were in the hold meaning they were - what class were they traveling?

BRADSHAW:

I don't (laughs) - they had nothing but potatoes to eat.

MOORE:

So it had to be third class.

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

So that's they said - the food - what about the food? The food was--?

BRADSHAW:

Well um, m—I had an older sister. It was just the two of us and um - uh - th—my parents -- or maybe she went up herself on the table and when they would bring the potatoes -- you know they'd just have 'em in a great big bowl and this - this sister of mine would um, grab the bowl and just dump it in her lap. And the - take her over to my mother and father. That's all they had to eat was potatoes.

MOORE:

Do you - did they say how long the voyage was?

BRADSHAW:

(long pause) No, I don't - I think they probably did but I don't recall.

MOORE:

Do you remember the date the - the ship came - left port? You were so small that these are all things -

BRADSHAW:

Yeah. I um - I was the only one that didn't seem to be seasick (laughs). I was running all over the - the deck, you know - and in the soap suds where the sailors were swabbing the decks.

MOORE:

Mhmm.

BRADSHAW:

And uh - I was the only one seem - seemed to be able to even get around.

MOORE:

Now did your parents mention anything about Ellis Island?

BRADSHAW:

Well in -

MOORE:

D—did you have an examination at all? A medical examination?

BRADSHAW:

Oh I don't know, I don't know about that.

MOORE:

But - but you mentioned to me earlier you knew you came through Ellis Island.

BRADSHAW:

I what?

MOORE:

You mentioned earlier that you knew you came through Ellis Island - the family did.

BRADSHAW:

Well just what was told to us.

MOORE:

Mhmm. And um, what about - did your parents ever think um - that they would be possibly sent back for any reasons when they came here?

BRADSHAW:

My father wanted to go back.

MOORE:

(laughs)

BRADSHAW:

Yeah, he wanted to go back because he um - [speaks in German]. (laughs) Do you know German at all?

MOORE:

No.

BRADSHAW:

[not understood]. When they say [speaks in German] it means "I'm the boss in the house" and all the men wanted to be boss in the house and they knew that if they came over here that it would be frowned on for them to beat their wives.

MOORE:

Ahh. Now you mentioned German - now what was the language you spoke at home?

BRADSHAW:

German.

MOORE:

German. What did your parents speak with each other?

BRADSHAW:

German.

MOORE:

So did you know any English before you came over here?

BRADSHAW:

No.

MOORE:

Your family? Your mother or father?

BRADSHAW:

Um, I didn't - I didn't learn English until I went to school about the age of seven. Then I started lear—and I had this wonderful little teacher and she uh - she was great on phonetics and so she got rid of the accents from most of us. You know I don't have too much of an accent, if at all. I don't think I have any accent but um - this little teacher - this little school t- and they were only about eighteen years old - the school teachers at that time.

MOORE:

Mhmm. We'll get back to the schooling. Wh—when you came here, were y—was your family detained at Ellis Island for any reason? For any length of time that you know of?

BRADSHAW:

[superposed] Not that I know of - I never heard of.

MOORE:

Ok, and um - where did you go -- once you came through Ellis Island - where did you go? Where was your family headed for when they came here?

BRADSHAW:

To North Dakota.

MOORE:

The same town where your grandfather was?

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And what work did your parents find when they went there?

BRADSHAW:

Well my mother—

MOORE:

[interposed] If they did find work.

BRADSHAW:

My mother walked three miles every morning to do house cleaning for people in the um, small community. Manning, North Dakota was the t— the town where we sort of resided, you know.

MOORE:

Manning. And do you remember the address at Manning?

BRADSHAW:

Oh, they didn't have addresses (laughs). It was just - they h—they just lived there (laughs).

MOORE:

So that was back in 1910?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

That you went to Manning, South Dakota.

BRADSHAW:

[superposed] Yeah, mhmm. North Dakota.

MOORE:

I'm sorry N—North Dakota.

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And um, so your mother worked for families as a housekeeper?

BRADSHAW:

Cleaning the house and washing clothes and all that.

MOORE:

And what did your father do?

BRADSHAW:

Well, he didn't do anything. As a matter of fact he was kind of a - I think he was a heel[ph] (laughs). I didn't - I didn't like my father very well because he was mean to my mother.

MOORE:

So he - did he find work ever here?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes. See they were building - I mean there's - they were just colonizing North Dakota at that time and so they had a lot of building to do and my father of course was a builder. Now he - he built as little as he could. He d—he told my mother that because she wouldn't return to Europe like she was gonna have to suffer as a result. And he made her—

MOORE:

Work.

BRADSHAW:

Work. She'd have to walk, you know, three miles every - to the community and - and work there all day and then walk back home.

MOORE:

Now, you said your mother's father was there. Did he stay - nearby - did he stay?

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] He was the first one of the clan to come over.

MOORE:

Did you know him?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes.

MOORE:

Mhmm. And how would you describe your grandfather?

BRADSHAW:

Well he had a big uh - mustache. One of the big mustaches I remember that because he insisted on kissing all of his grandchildren (laughs) - his mustache, you know. But um, (laughs) you know - but um - um - e— my grandfather was real good to us.

MOORE:

What language did your grandfather speak before he came here?

BRADSHAW:

German.

MOORE:

German.

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And what language did he speak to you as a - as a child then?

BRADSHAW:

German.

MOORE:

German. So you basically kept German has a language at home?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

And used - used English at school.

BRADSHAW:

Y—yes. At school they would teach us English you know and insist that we speak English as much as possible.

MOORE:

And do you remember what your grandfather did for work there?

BRADSHAW:

Well, he - he learned to be a shoemaker.

MOORE:

In the United States?

BRADSHAW:

No, um, over in Europe. Because he - he made the shoes for all of his family.

MOORE:

So that's one possible pr--profession?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

Um, did your mother learn English?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes. She was real anxious to learn English. She just wanted - you know, she encouraged us to sp—speak English as much as we could.

MOORE:

Did your father learn English?

BRADSHAW:

Uh, yes. My father was a pretty sharp man - I mean mentally. But he was also a tyrant.

MOORE:

And what house did you live in in Montana - in - in North Dakota? Sorry.

BRADSHAW:

We lived in the um - um - sod house. You know, made with - with um - mud and bricks - mud bricks.

MOORE:

Sod—sod house? It was called a sod house?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

And um, how big was it?

BRADSHAW:

Well I don't think it was very big as I remember. And um, the way you washed - you washed the floors - you put water on it and just smoothed it out.

MOORE:

So was it a dirt floor?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah, yeah.

MOORE:

A dirt floor.

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

And how was th—what was the lighting - did you have?

BRADSHAW:

The lighting - w—um - ah, why can't I eh - think now. Uh, lamps.

MOORE:

Lamps? What kind of lamps? Do you remember?

BRADSHAW:

[superposed] Yeah. Kerosene lamps.

MOORE:

Kerosene lamps. And what about plumbing? Was - where would you get your water from?

BRADSHAW:

Well we got it from a well.

MOORE:

And how far was the well from the house?

BRADSHAW:

Not very far.

MOORE:

And what about toilet facilities?

BRADSHAW:

Toilet facilities - well they had these outhouses.

MOORE:

Mhmm, alright. And what about furniture? What furniture did you have in your house?

BRADSHAW:

Well of course they made whatever furniture they had. And um, we had um - we made beds out of corn husks, you know. I mean that was the way they - the mattresses that they had.

MOORE:

Were made out of corn husks?

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And um, how far was the nearest neighbor?

BRADSHAW:

Well some of them lived pretty close together.

MOORE:

[superposed] What's pretty close like?

BRADSHAW:

Half a mile. But my mother would have to walk - my mother walked three miles.

MOORE:

And is that where town was? Was this - was this sod house in town or out of town? Where was it in relation to the town - the sod house that you lived in?

BRADSHAW:

It was out of town.

MOORE:

It was out of town.

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And did you have a garden at all?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes, yes - we had a garden.

MOORE:

What did you grow in your garden?

BRADSHAW:

They grew most anything. Potatoes, and cabbage and - and uh - um - I see eh - I wanna think of um, a favorite um - my oh - watermelon. A-- and muskmelon. Um, my um, grandfather used to raise those and um, he'd go out into the garden and pick half a dozen melons and bring them and th—that would be a part of their meal.

MOORE:

And what type - what other neighbors - what were the nationalities of the neighbors nearby?

BRADSHAW:

German, mostly.

MOORE:

German?

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And um, did your family get along with the neighbors?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes, they got along fine. Matter fact my father got along fine because he intended to go back when he got ready and then when he wanted to go back my mother wouldn't go. So that's why he told her that s—she would have to work all the days of her life, you know. Because she wouldn't do what he said.

MOORE:

Mhmm. Now hold on for a second. We'll turn the tape over here now - take a break. You mentioned going to school before. Now, do you remember your first days of going to school?

BRADSHAW:

Well it was a - a rural school outside of um, Dickinson and Manning. Dickinson and Manning, North Dakota were close together, you know.

MOORE:

And how big was the school?

BRADSHAW:

Well they had a - well they had quite a few um - students.

MOORE:

How did you get to school?

BRADSHAW:

Um, mostly walked (laughs).

MOORE:

And how far was that school from home?

BRADSHAW:

Well, uh, in some instances it was quite a ways.

MOORE:

And what's that mean - quite a ways - like how many?

BRADSHAW:

How many blocks? Um, oh probably six or eight blocks.

MOORE:

And um, you said you spoke German. Were other students in the same situation as you were?

BRADSHAW:

Well no, they were other nationalities there you know. Scandinavians and Italians and -

MOORE:

And they also did not know English?

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And did people treat - d—were you treated well in school?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes, yes.

MOORE:

Did you ever experience - did anybody ever say anything - call you a name at all - for being foreign?

BRADSHAW:

Uh uh.

MOORE:

No, so did you ever experience any persecution or bigotry for being foreign?

BRADSHAW:

No.

MOORE:

Now you said you had a marvelous teacher who knew phonetics.

BRADSHAW:

Yes.

MOORE:

What was your teacher's name?

BRADSHAW:

Oh I don't remember. I really don't remember her name but she was a - she was only about eighteen and she was a real cute - cute teacher. She was - and I mean she was good to us as students and she was good to us in teaching us and she had all these different nationalities that she had to overcome in order to teach us English.

MOORE:

And do you remember y—a—any of your schoolmates, at all? Any special person that was close?

BRADSHAW:

No. Those are out of my mind, pretty much.

MOORE:

How long did you stay in that sod house? How long did you live there?

BRADSHAW:

Well, not too long because we moved - my father w—was a - a builder, of course, and so he built um - lumber house. I don't - I - I don't - I don't know too much - I don't remember too much about the len—length of time that we lived in different areas. But uh, Manning, North Dakota was the place where we th—the largest community that we lived in to begin with.

MOORE:

And then where did you move to?

BRADSHAW:

(long pause) Hm… Manning… Kildeer - Kildeer, North Dakota.

MOORE:

How do you spell that?

BRADSHAW:

K-I-L-D-double E-R.

MOORE:

Kildeer, North Dakota.

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And where did your - is that where your father built the house?

BRADSHAW:

Um, well he never built a house - i—it was always on the outskirts. It wasn't in the community.

MOORE:

Mhmm, mhmm. And what about religious life in th—in this country? Did you - your parents remain Catholic?

BRADSHAW:

Yes. I um - I was a Catholic until I was about thirty years old. And um - but um - I was never happy as a Catholic. I don't know why but um - I think it was the domineering attitude of the - the sisters, you know, that were conducting the educational programs and so on.

MOORE:

Ok so your parents were Catholic though. Did they go to church here at all?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes. We - everybody went to church.

MOORE:

On Sundays?

BRADSHAW:

Uh huh.

MOORE:

And did you continue saying prayers and grace?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah, yeah.

MOORE:

Both of them you continued doing?

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

And what about your favorite holiday? What was your favorite holiday?

BRADSHAW:

Oh dear, I don't know. Uh - maybe the Fourth of July.

MOORE:

(laughs) And why?

BRADSHAW:

Because they had all the firecrackers (laughs) and all the excitement, you know, that went with the Fourth.

MOORE:

And that - that to you is a - was most fun.

BRADSHAW:

Yeah, uh huh.

MOORE:

(laughs) And um, what did you do for entertainment as a child in North Dakota? What types of things did you do to entertain yourself?

BRADSHAW:

Well of course they made us work pretty early. You know, get out in the fields and - and the - glean the um -

MOORE:

Ok. And glean the -

BRADSHAW:

Glean the grains, you know. Um, mostly what was left after the combines went through, you know. And so then we'd have to go pick up the individual stalks of grain.

MOORE:

Now you - so you worked very young. I mean -

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] Yeah.

MOORE:

How did your fa—mother - did your mother - how could I say this? She had great expectations about coming to the United States.

BRADSHAW:

Yeah, yeah.

MOORE:

How did she adjust once she got here and did she [recording skips]

BRADSHAW:

Oh yeah. She found what she was after. And that was that she wouldn't be abused by my father.

MOORE:

Uh huh. And did she ever want to go back, your mother?

BRADSHAW:

No, no.

MOORE:

And you mentioned your father had wanted to go back.

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

Did - how did he adjust to life here?

BRADSHAW:

W--he didn—he - he n—told my mother she'd have to work all her days if she stayed here. Because (laughs) his favorite saying was "Over in Europe I'm a gentleman. Over here I'm a nothing." (laughs) You know that was his favorite and that's why he didn't like being here. Because the men didn't - weren't recognized as being superior to the women.

MOORE:

And so did he stay here, your father?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes, yeah. He didn't go back without us and uh - then uh - course my mother divorced him.

MOORE:

And what age did she divorce him?

BRADSHAW:

I don't - I - I really don't know. It um - it wasn't um - long after we got here because he w—he thought he was going to go back and he thought he had my mother schooled in the idea, you know that she was going back. When - when he got ready to go back she wouldn't go back.

MOORE:

And did he eventually go back?

BRADSHAW:

No.

MOORE:

No. So when they divorced, what did he do for -

BRADSHAW:

Well, he just lived on the streets.

MOORE:

Mhmm.

BRADSHAW:

You know, he didn't um - he didn't have any place special to live. We didn't have a - a home and um - we lived mostly with my grandfather.

MOORE:

Mhmm. And your grandfather had work here?

BRADSHAW:

Well he was - he was just a farmer, I guess. And he didn't - he didn't have any occupation. He uh - he learned how to make shoes for his family so he made shoes for his - all of his family.

MOORE:

Now um, would you say your grandfather was satisfied with life here?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes. He was - he - he felt - the only trouble is my grandfather would beat my grandmother. That's the only thing I had against him (laughs). Somehow it seems like men f—had - feel superior to their spouses and the way they'd accomplish that was to beat them.

MOORE:

Now did any family tragedy occur during those years at all?

BRADSHAW:

No, not that I can - can think of. Um, of course when we - we children grew up, you know, and got older, why we - um - well for instance I worked for a family - th—some ranchers because the wife had too much work to do. See so they farmed me out to over there.

MOORE:

How old were you then?

BRADSHAW:

Probably ten.

MOORE:

So you started work at ten?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah. Oh yes, they um - well they started working just as soon as they were able.

MOORE:

And how far did you go through school then - your schooling?

BRADSHAW:

Well, I had some high school. But um, I didn't get too much education until - there was a family that um - wanted to sort of adopt me to help the wife raise the children because she had - the wife had a nervous condition. Name was Ellsworth. And they had um, three children. And um, the wife w—wasn't able to cope with the - the nervousness that was created with the children. But they were - they were real good to me. And um, the only thing is um, they - he was a shriner and they came um - oh I don't know where they went for one of these conventions. And she was killed in an accident.

MOORE:

Oh. How was sh—in what accident?

BRADSHAW:

Uh - well it was f—a um - an automobile accident.

MOORE:

And then what happened?

BRADSHAW:

Well, um, then I was kind of farmed out, you know, to earn my living. And the - the people I was farmed to would pay for my education and see that I got a chance to go to school.

MOORE:

Which school is that now?

BRADSHAW:

The um, public school.

MOORE:

Ok. Now - now what happened after that age? How did you - did you h—m—marry?

BRADSHAW:

Uh no. No I didn't marry until I was about thirty years old. Um, it was um, a friend of mine that um, wanted to go to - to California. See we were in North Dakota. She wanted to go to California and so she talked me into going with her. And so um, I don't remember where we got the money to do it but we did! We went to California and -

MOORE:

[interposed] Where in California?

BRADSHAW:

Los Angeles.

MOORE:

What did you do there?

BRADSHAW:

Well um, let's see. We got jobs. We were - by that time w—I could type and so I got a secretarial job and um, I remember the man that I worked for - his name was Grayson - Mr. Grayson. And I think he had in mind that here was a - a little um, foreign girl that didn't know her way around and - and he was going to show her the way. But he didn't get very far with me (laughs).

MOORE:

What's that mean?

BRADSHAW:

Well I didn't go along with his plans. So--

MOORE:

So you stayed in Los Angeles?

BRADSHAW:

Yes.

MOORE:

How long?

BRADSHAW:

Liv—lived there quite a [not understood]. That's where I - I married.

MOORE:

Now w—how did you meet your husband?

BRADSHAW:

Um, there was a - a dance hall in Los Angeles and um, people would go there, you know, and then they'd get acquainted an—and that's how I—

MOORE:

Did you go to dances very often?

BRADSHAW:

Yes.

MOORE:

And—

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] I—I enjoyed dancing. As a matter of fact I wanted to become a professional dancer but I never had the money or the time, you know to [not understood].

MOORE:

And what was y—background of your - your husband? What did he do [not understood]?

BRADSHAW:

Well, the first husband that I had was a bad one. He - he didn't wanna work. And um—

MOORE:

[interposed] What background was he? Did he have?

BRADSHAW:

H—he was a Mormon.

MOORE:

He was Mormon - your first husband was a Mormon.

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm.

MOORE:

So you met him at thirty.

BRADSHAW:

Um, yes I think I was about that age. And um, his name was Denning. And um, he liked to play pool. That was where he spent most of his time within the pool room. And he used to get real unhappy with me because I didn't give him money for cigarettes. He was - he was also a smoker. And he came from a um, a - a good LDS family. His mother was um, relief society president and um, he had six brothers and one sister. And um, th—they kinda spoiled him, you know, and so he didn't wanna work and he didn't.

MOORE:

Now you mentioned that you had - that you are - you became Mormon then. Is it—you -

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] Yeah.

MOORE:

You converted - well how did that happen?

BRADSHAW:

Well, I met this Denning - Leaf Denning - in the dance hall. You know, where we went to dance. And um, he had a roommate and um, I don't remember exactly how - well anyway, I married him. I married Leaf Denning and um, I was married to him for nine years. And then I guess I got tired of supporting him and he used to be real unhappy with me because I didn't give him money for his cigarettes.

MOORE:

Mhmm. Now how did you become a Mormon then or when did that happen or how did you make that step?

BRADSHAW:

Well, I um, 'course um, married Leaf. And he was LDS. And um, (sighs) - see what was your question?

MOORE:

About becoming a Mormon. Yourself - you were Catholic before -

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] Yeah.

MOORE:

[interposed] So marrying him is how you became.

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

And did you stay in the - in the church?

BRADSHAW:

In the chur—LDS church?

MOORE:

Yeah.

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes, yes.

MOORE:

So after nine years what happened? Did you m—remarry again? Or ever remarry?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes, I - I've had four husbands.

MOORE:

Oh!

BRADSHAW:

(laughs) Um, I mean I um - I didn't like living alone. And this girl - this girlfriend of mine - she and I came down here - came to California together and - well it seemed to me like money reached a little bit farther than it does now, you know (laughs). And we uh - we um, lived together. I lived with this um, Edna Isaacson and she and I were friends a long time. And then she went to Monrovia and um, I married Leaf and lived in Los Angeles.

MOORE:

So you married four times. Did you have children?

BRADSHAW:

No, never had any children.

MOORE:

And—

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] Uh - because my husband Leaf -- which was the first one that I married - he was - he was sterile and he didn't tell me. So I kept going to the doctor, you know, and getting shots and all this sort of thing trying to have some children. And I finally found out why I couldn't have any children and then I divorced him.

MOORE:

Now when you look back - you've had a long life - you've lived in two countries -

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] Yeah.

MOORE:

When you look over your life and life here, h—how do you view your mother's decision and enthusiasm to come here?

BRADSHAW:

Oh I think she was - I - I just love her f--to death for (laughs) - you know.

MOORE:

Yeah. Did your mother become Mormon?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes.

MOORE:

Your mother did?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

And did your - your father?

BRADSHAW:

No.

MOORE:

Did your - your mother became Mormon. How about your grandfather?

BRADSHAW:

No.

MOORE:

No.

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] No.

MOORE:

But your mother also converted?

BRADSHAW:

Yes.

MOORE:

What - when?

BRADSHAW:

Well, um—

MOORE:

[interposed] When you did or later or--?

BRADSHAW:

No l—after I did. After I did.

MOORE:

[superposed] After you did.

BRADSHAW:

Mhmm. I was - I sort of led the way for the family. And there was - most of them followed.

MOORE:

Your older sister - did she become Mormon?

BRADSHAW:

Yeah.

MOORE:

And your younger sister?

BRADSHAW:

Uh, yes. She's - she's - this is my younger sister right here.

MOORE:

And she's active, is she?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes.

MOORE:

How active is your family in the LDS?

BRADSHAW:

I - I was very active in Los Angeles and I - I was - became the dance director in the church. And uh - I taught - taught dancing and um - well I've been active in the church ever since I was 'bout thirty years old.

MOORE:

And um, what do you - let's see why is your Mormon faith, you think, more important than the Catholic? You said you weren't happy in the Catholic. What's the difference?

BRADSHAW:

Well, the difference to me was that um, um - well let's see. How shall I state this? Um, in - in the LDS church the individual was important, you know. And in the Catholic Church the hierarchy of the church was the most important. And so I preferred the LDS (laughs). And I was the first one in the family to join the church.

MOORE:

Mhmm. And how when you look back - as we were saying before - on your mothers decision - how do you view that? How do you think of your - was it—

BRADSHAW:

Well I - I thought she was - I loved my mother and she - she loved her children. She was real good to her children. And um, uh - well, I don't know what to say.

MOORE:

Was she happy - satisfied with her life here?

BRADSHAW:

No. She had to work real hard, you know, and 'cause she had this family and my father. My father refused to work when she didn't - refused to go back to Europe.

MOORE:

So you think - how did she - how did she view her original decision? Did she think it was a good idea?

BRADSHAW:

Oh yes. She just - she was um, willing to do most anything to get my father to come to America.

MOORE:

And now how do you think of your mother's decision? Are you happy she came?

BRADSHAW:

[superposed] Oh well, oh yes. Goodness gracious. I um, wouldn't be anything but an American (laughs).

MOORE:

I'd - I'd like to thank you on behalf of Ellis Island for speaking with us.

BRADSHAW:

[interposed] Yeah.

MOORE:

And today - this is July 9th, 1994. I'm in Bountiful Utah for the Ellis Island Oral History Project. END OF INTERVIEW