I graduated from medicine from George Washington University in 1925 and took the internship in the Public Health Service because I wanted some variety of training--which is what I obtained, quite a variety!--before I went into my specialty od Obstetrics and Gynecology. In those days the immigration was already beginning to wane. The immigrants were only part of the care we rendered because part of the care was to the Merchant Marine sailors for whom these hospitals were originally started. The Public Health Service took care of the whole care--that included the hospital care and the immigrant surveillance. Ellis Island was served by one ferry which used to take us from South Ferry over to the Island. We all had our quarters. The Island itself was composed in the shape of an "E". The two southern limbs of the Island were the hospitals and the northern limb was the detention station where the immigrants were processed. The Public Health Service was a tightly-knit group of men, many of whom were from the South, especially the University of Virginia, most of whom were very able doctors, intellectually good, but as usual in a bureaucracy about ten percent of them really carried the load and amongst the outstanding ones were Dr. Ricky Waugh and Dr. Hollingsworth especially. Dr. Waugh was a general surgeon the, Dr. Hollingsworth was an Internist. We as interns did the routine care, all under the supervision of the regular Corps, upper echelon officers. The two hospital Islands contains, among other things, a dungeon for deportees who were not citizens and who were there for observation leading to their deportation, and in these dungeons were criminals, insane people, and people who were for deportation but who were otherwise somewhat ill. I might say as an aside that they always had these large brown wharf rats running around which were impossible to eradicate because Ellis Island was at a low level as far as the beginning of the bay. But they kept it in good condition. The plant was in good physical condition. At that time the Public Health Service had a number of Acting Assistant Surgeons who wanted to be close to New York but who did not want to be in the active Corps. There were no women at that time in the Corps that I could see. These men used to climb on the tug boats and climb up the ladders to the liners and inspect the immigrants. And the ones who had diseases, especially contagious diseases were set aside and had a slip put on their garments and they were sent in to the hospital at Ellis Island so that they could be diagnosed, and if found to have contagious disease, were usually returned back to their port of embarkation and there was a fine assessed against the steamship company. Now, while I was there, there was the beginning od sending of United States Public Health Service officers to various countries who would examine immigrants and if they determined they were in good physical condition, free of contagious disease they were allowed to come in so they were not caught up after they reached United States waters and then have to be deported on account of these diseases. The immigrants that I saw, most of them were from Ireland. These were many young, handsome appearing people, but with no teeth! Nineteen year old immigrants with plates, upper and lower plates, and they said then it was poor diet--too many potatoes, starches. In addition we had some from the Mideast and the Mediterranean area. The ones from Ireland had some tuberculosis, because we had a tuberculosis ward on the Island. I might say in addition that we had various diseases come through, particularly things like favus (from the Mediterranean and Mideast areas), trachoma, some tuberculosis, a lot of anemia, and a good deal of worm infestation, amebiasis. I saw on the Island, leprosy, amoebic dysentery, amoebic abscess of the liver--which Dr. Waugh operated on, a tremendous amount of foul smelling, inspissated pus of the liver, I saw a good deal of favus, which we couldn't do anything for, saw a lot of trachoma. We used to treat trachoma with copper sulphate sticks to the conjunctiva, which apparently did very little good; plenty of syphilis, on which we used the old salvarsan for; gonorrhea, lymphogranuloma inguinale, and many things from malnutrition, like anemia. If these people had a contagious disease, for instance, tuberculosis, favus, trachoma, leprosy, or the venereal diseases, they were deported, and the steamship company was fined. Now the Public Health Service was, as I have said, a closely-knit organization and as usual the major portion of the medical load was carried by about ten percent of the officers, which is typical of a bureaucratic medical organization, because without an incentive that you have from competition medical people just like any other group who don't have to compete become somewhat indifferent as far as producing service, care. And that is the reason why I didn't join the Public Health Service--because I was young and ambitious and full of vigor, and I wanted to make something of myself--I didn't want to get a position and draw my check and that was it. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone into medical school-- I would've gone into business, or something else. Now the attitude that the commissioned Corps had was a bit stifling too, because it was more of a military attitude than the present-day Public Health Service, which is somewhat emasculated, in my opinion. Some of the officers were rather stiff-necked, martinets--they were sticklers for the rules and regulations and those were the people who usually got to the administrative positions, because of that very thing. Some of those were not very humane, in my opinion. All in all, they wanted to just follow the rules and regulations.

Can you give me an example?

Well, I can give you an example, but cut the thing off! (Tape interrupted) TAPE CONTINUES

One of the deportees who was insane--a young woman. She was a manic, and they had her in a cage, essentially a cage. It was room, but it was an open cage in the locked wards. She used to write to Vincent Astor before I got there, and after I came she started writing me letters every day! I remember that! And I'll tell you another experience. There was a middle European family who lived in Cincinnati. The wife wanted to visit people in Europe, so she left and she was overseas a year, away from her husband. And she came back on the boat nine month pregnant! When she came off the boat onto the first Island, in the first leg where the immigrants came to, she went into the lady's room and she delivered the baby into the hopper, into the john. And then we--I was called over. We resuscitated the baby--and there was no placenta! Where was the placenta? They said it must be in the uterus, so I was designated because I had an interest in Obstetrics to find the placenta. So they said, put her on the hospital Island, and go into the uterus and pull the placenta out. But she had delivered the placenta--but that was my first experience in trying to remove a placenta from inside the uterus. Of course, I've had that experience many times, adherent placenta, placenta acreta, and so on. Now that woman was put on a boat--she was down in the bay for deportation because her husband said it's not my baby, I don't want her, I won't take her back. Then, he relented and he did take her back, with the baby. And that was a very interesting, true experience. Over all, it was a very interesting year from the standpoint of an intern. From the standpoint of being a Public Health Service officer, there was very little inspiration except on the part of maybe ten percent of the officers, who carried the load--I'm saying that for the second time. So I had a valued experience that many doctors have never seen some of the diseases that I saw.

Did you ever hear any of the officers complain about anything?

No, the officers didn't complain. They were getting their checks, they were getting their meals, they had their lodging. They had a tennis court. And they were close to New York, where if they were interested in the Stock Market, they were close to that, or interested in the theater, they were close to that. I never heard them complain. They had a nice, soft, easy , existence. But not an existence for a young doctor who's just starting and who's ambitious and just out of medical school. By the way, none of these four interns that I remember joined the Public Health Service. Not one of them.

Do you remember any Psychiatrists at Ellis Island?

There were no Psychiatrists as I remember. The general officers took care of it. They didn't have Psychiatry as well developed as it is now. We had a few consultants from New York City but they were generally surgeons, specialized surgeons. But we didn't have many of them. We had no Psychiatrists that I remember. None.