NASH:

. . . 1973, and I'm sitting in the kitchen of Mr. and Mrs. Dominick . . .

MRS. PELLEGRINO'S GRANDDAUGHTER:

John.

NASH:

. . . excuse me, of Mr. John Pellegrino, and they live in Great Kills, Staten Island, and they have a lovely house with a garden, beautiful flowers growing in front and vegetables, which I haven't seen yet, in the back. And I'm sitting in the kitchen, and it's a beautiful kitchen, with a great glass case filled with glasses and dishes, and it's very clean and there are white and yes, Mrs. Pellegrino says it's old-fashioned, and it is old-fashioned. It's very comfortable. And there's a picture of The Last Supper on the wall, and there's a plate of Pope Paul, and there's another plate of Jesus Christ, and a great, white wooden cabinet, and everything is very sparkling clean, and there are beautiful flowers that have just been picked from the garden sitting on the table, and we're all just sitting here ready to begin the interview. ( there is a disturbance with the microphone ) All right. Mrs. Pellegrino, could you tell me what year you were born?

PELLEGRINO:

Me born 27th Septiembre, 18, uh, '91.

NASH:

I forgot to add that Mrs. Pellegrino's granddaughter Joanne is sitting here with us to help us when Mrs. Pellegrino doesn't understand my English, because she speaks English but she needs a little help. ( she laughs ) Mrs. Pellegrino, what town were you born in?

PELLEGRINO:

What time?

NASH:

What town?

PELLEGRINO:

The town. Cerignola, provincia de Foggia.

NASH:

Uh-huh. And that's in the south of Italy, right?

PELLEGRINO:

Si, down the south, si.

NASH:

And could you tell me a little bit about what your life was like shortly before you came to this country? In other words, why did you come, and what was your life like?

PELLEGRINO:

Me come this country because everybody in the town talk the America, and they told America nice, America pay more. You see, of course, at this time, no pay too much.

NASH:

In Italy.

PELLEGRINO:

All over, all over, see. And now, see, after, I mean, me marry the first of Settembre, 1912, see. Marry because my husband in the same town, same marry. And after six months, one of my cousins, see, in the America. See? In New Dorp.

NASH:

New Dorp, Staten Island?

PELLEGRINO:

Yes.

NASH:

You had a cousin who lived in New Dorp.

PELLEGRINO:

And I tell my husband, see, (?), I think, I told him, my cousin, see, maybe send the ticket from this country that the America, see. I think come the America. My husband told, "All right. I'll let you, you do what you like," my husband told me, see. "You do what you like."

NASH:

Would he do it too, though?

PELLEGRINO:

Si, all right. I got everything, because me marry over there, and nice rooms, all nice furniture, see. Everything, because six months married. And I call my cousin. My cousin right away told, "All right."

NASH:

Called her? You mean you wrote her.

PELLEGRINO:

Yes. I write the letter. I write the letter, and they tell, "Maybe you send the ticket, see? You pay for me. When me come, I give it back." My cousin told, "All right. Everything all right." See? And after, see, I told my husband, "See the letter?" The letter, the time, see, I write one month to come last year ago, see. One month receive the letter, really, see.

NASH:

I didn't understand that, Mrs. Pellegrino. Could you repeat that?

PELLEGRINO:

You know, that time the letter no fast similar now.

NASH:

Oh. You mean it took a long time to mail the letter.

PELLEGRINO:

A long time, a lot of months. And my cousin ready to send, send the ticket. And to come, see. The (?), it reach New Dorp to tell to my cousin, see the first (?), see. 1913, (?). ( voices off mike ) First (?), 1913. When I come over here, I mean, pregnant, two months. Because at that time they (?), see.

NASH:

(after consulting with Mrs. Pellegrino's granddaughter) Oh. If I may explain, Mrs. Pellegrino, you were two months pregnant when you first, just came over.

PELLEGRINO:

And the ship, I come Hamburg Americano.

NASH:

Hamburg Americano.

PELLEGRINO:

Yes. At the time, see, I make very, very sick the stomach, see. Very sick.

NASH:

Where did you sail from? Where did you sail from? What city did you leave from?

MRS. PELLEGRINO'S GRANDDAUGHTER:

What city did you leave Italy from?

PELLEGRINO:

Oh, my place. And the ship, the ship stop, you know, in the after, you know, see. What do you call, uh, before, ( there is a disturbance with the microphone ) I go to Naples, see, first. And then Naples I go in the ship, see. At the time take the train to my place where they come, and Naples start to vomit me. Oh, boy. When it come in the ship, third, twelve day in the ship.

NASH:

What class did you travel?

PELLEGRINO:

Third, third class. Very sick. I'm going inside the ship in the hospital, see. Vomit all the time. Well, let me see. My husband (?) every day see me. And when we reach another place for to make everything straight, see. And when see me, see, the doctor told him, (?), see. At the time, I'm ashamed to (?). ( she laughs ) Me pregnant.

NASH:

Oh, you mean your husband didn't know you were pregnant. Oh, the doctor didn't know you were pregnant. ( she laughs ) I'm sorry. ( voices garbled )

PELLEGRINO:

Me ashamed. My husband told this pregnant, oh, because twenty-one years old, me. So all this, she's sick the water, she's sick the travel. When it take the ground, see, everything all right, out. So he now want to send back me because very sick.

NASH:

Oh, the United States.

PELLEGRINO:

Yes! See? After when (?), six months marry, and the pregnant took two months to all this, and the travel, you know, very sick. And they come, say, my cousin say, "Wait for me, wait for me," over the island.

NASH:

On Ellis Island?

PELLEGRINO:

Yes.

NASH:

Could you tell us a little bit about Ellis Island and what it was like when you got there?

PELLEGRINO:

Well, because me no see nothing because, you see, you know, very sick, see? Very sick. And when come to my, they take the bus, that time no bus, trolley car, the trolley car. Going in the trolley car, and the vomit, too. ( she laughs ) Nothing used to (?), see, nothing. My cousin feel very bad, see, because she no want me to be sick over my place, see. After, when see. Well, anyway, a little time, a little time I feel much better, see. And I can't go, the business, because, I mean, they good dressmaker.

NASH:

You say that you couldn't . . .

PELLEGRINO:

My trade.

NASH:

Oh, your trade was dressmaker.

PELLEGRINO:

Dressmaker, see, and a good dressmaker, see. And, see, I stay over there, after come to the children, see. Ottobre, see, eleven Ottobre, born the first my son. 1913, see. And 1914 come another one, see. 13 Dicembre 1914, see. Joseph 13, the first, Willie the 14th, see. Well, I say in the Staten Island all the time, see, me and my husband. My husband, the trade of my husband, cut for the people, cut the grass.

NASH:

He cut the grass for people.

PELLEGRINO:

The people at that time more rich people, more nice the house, everything. Can't talk very good. Well, do very good.

NASH:

He did this in Staten Island, is that right?

PELLEGRINO:

In Staten Island. I stay six years, and the comes 1915 comes another son, a boy, the name Sam. '18 comes the girl because the three boys first, and the fourth girl. And that's in '18, 1918, she was born. And this, well, see. My husband, he look, because at that time no very good. Very, very tight. See, 1914, see, start the war, and the die, the brother of my husband. The wife, my sister. My husband told, see, "You come the other side, see, because your sister alone." Come the other sister. My sister, ask any (?), "Why don't you come back home? I got a nice house. You stay with me." Me no want to go. That time, see, you know the wife make a peace with her husband. "All right, I'll go." My husband live over here for two years, and me come the America, uh, the Italy, to care for my sister. My sister got two children. Cry all the time for the husband because he die in the war. Well, me told sister, "Why you cry? This is the war. What are you going to do? Take care of yourself, and me take care of very good." My husband, after two years, come back over Italy.

NASH:

So you were living two years without your husband in Italy.

PELLEGRINO:

Yes. And no good, because, you know, better America, better America, see. And me come over there, it's no good.

NASH:

So you decided to go back to America.

PELLEGRINO:

And come back, 1913.

NASH:

1933?

PELLEGRINO:

No, 19, uh ( she pauses ) '23.

NASH:

And was it different coming in 1923 than it was . . .

PELLEGRINO:

More better.

NASH:

. . . coming in 1912?

PELLEGRINO:

More better than before.

NASH:

More better.

PELLEGRINO:

More better than before. I stayed the other side (?) for the children, and they start the other side of the Fascist. Very, very bad.

NASH:

Was there fighting in Italy when you were there, when you went back?

PELLEGRINO:

Very bad. My husband over here in the America. Very bad over there. Kill the people. Lot of, a lot of things. Bad.

NASH:

Could you tell us about . . .

PELLEGRINO:

Me? ( she laughs ) Oh, see? Me, I want to die the Italy, and my husband is in America! Oh, boy. ( she laughs ) And the truth is. My husband told me, "No." "Enough. I want to come back." Me call, "No come back. I come back America with the children." "No, I want to come back."

NASH:

And he did.

PELLEGRINO:

And he come back. I stay two years, come back again, after decide my husband better the America.

NASH:

What do you remember about the fighting? Do you remember anything about the fighting in Italy?

PELLEGRINO:

Oh, yes. I remember the Socialiste Fasciste.

NASH:

Could you tell us a little bit about what you saw?

PELLEGRINO:

Huh? Fasciste Socialiste very bad. Because, see, that time Mussolini give white papers kill the Fascists, the Socialiste. The Socialiste (?) was very bad.

NASH:

What town were you living in? Was this the town that you lived in in the beginning?

PELLEGRINO:

Oh, yes. All the time took care of my sister, because I got my sister a very big house in the (?). This street, a lot of Socialist. See, the Fascists come. One night, see, knock on the door. Somebody give the name, the friend my name. And they give maybe the number to my house the other side. And they come twelve o'clock, the police, over the house. Knock the door. And twelve o'clock, see, it's bad. And after open the door me, "What do you want?" "I want this and them. My name, Pellegrino, my husband over here in America. My sister recognize the big shot of the police, because my sister, the pension die the husband in the war in 1914. And they tell, "You no recognize me? Me the widow of Pellegrino." It was the same name my husband, the name that my sister as us. "Me the widow Pellegrino." "Oh, yes, all right. Come on, lady, sleep, sleep." ( she laughs ) Had to come to sleep, because very bad time, 1920, 1922, see.

MRS. PELLEGRINO'S GRANDDAUGHTER:

One time did you hide the children?

PELLEGRINO:

Ah, the children sleep, the children sleep and don't no wake up, sleep. Me and my sister get up, tell, "What do you want?"

NASH:

Who came?

PELLEGRINO:

Yes.

NASH:

Who was it?

PELLEGRINO:

Oh, a lot of police, because want one man, Socialist man, see, Socialist man. There is the name, very bad, see. Me no belong with the Socialists. Belong everybody good. See, the first time (?), I make consider a lot, a lot of thing, this. And when, after come me, talking bad to my husband, see, me, the children die, and my husband over in America. That's no nice, see. Well, anyway, and we come back now. When he look everything, he right away come back again to America.

NASH:

Tell us a little bit about what it was like going back to America again. What was the difference . . .

PELLEGRINO:

Oh, yeah, a lot of friend . . .

NASH:

. . . in the process from the first to the second time.

PELLEGRINO:

. . . in the ship, too. I come over here . . . ( break in tape )

NASH:

Right. Now we're looking at a document from Italy which enabled Mr. Pellegrino to get on the ship. It says that he was physically ineligible to serve in the Italian Army, and for that reason he could, would be permitted to go on the ship.

PELLEGRINO:

My husband no come to the military.

NASH:

Right.

MRS. PELLEGRINO'S GRANDDAUGHTER:

That's what she said.

PELLEGRINO:

Si.

NASH:

And the name, and the name of the ship was?

PELLEGRINO:

Conte Verde. And the table nice, before very bad. ( she laughs ) Hamburg Americana, third. This third class, too. And got a cabina with the six bed, all the six my children, see, seven. Mirror, nice. It's tourist, uh, tourist cabin a, see, tourist. Very good.

NASH:

Were you as sick on this trip as you were . . .

PELLEGRINO:

No. Not sick. No sick.

NASH:

But your children were sick. But your children were sick.

PELLEGRINO:

Everybody could (?). When a come first to my cousin, my cousin told me, "Look, me come for the visit. No come for the trip." My place they come back the America. Come for the visit, very good. Very good, the trains, see come Naple, dress for the children more better . . .

NASH:

Oh, she was saying you came like a visitor.

PELLEGRINO:

Yes.

NASH:

Looking nice. Uh-huh.

PELLEGRINO:

Very, very good, see.

NASH:

And what happened when you got to Ellis Island this time? You were never more?

PELLEGRINO:

All this coming, no. This to Naple. No more Island.

NASH:

No more Ellis Island.

PELLEGRINO:

No Ellis Island. Everything the Naples, see? Visa, capelli.

NASH:

Oh, they physically examined you for . . .

PELLEGRINO:

Examination, everything. Put in the ship everything all right.

NASH:

And where, where did the examination take place? Do you remember?

PELLEGRINO:

No, this I no remember. The place the Naples. This I no remember the Naples.

MRS. PELLEGRINO'S GRANDDAUGHTER:

In Naples.

PELLEGRINO:

Naples. ( there is a disturbance with the microphone )

NASH:

Oh. You were examined in Naples, Italy.

PELLEGRINO:

Yes.

NASH:

I see. And when, when you came to the United States, where were you, what happened when you got off the boat in the United States?

PELLEGRINO:

Oh, you just, just get off yourself. Nothing. Now I remember another thing. When we reach over here, and we reach eighth of Settembre, '23. The eighth of Settembre, and the after said, "I got a lot of people come to this country." And I remember maybe a hundred people come there. Oh, now I remember, forty-two thousand. They crammed the ship. And come, and they stay six days in the ship. The Conte Verde, six days. Stayed six days in the ship, everything, nice for in the ship, because six days. The ship paint, come to (?), Brooklyn, see, all paint, everybody inside. See, because, she wanted to come back, because all the time the ship come and go back, see, paint, they send back. Paint the, very . . .

NASH:

Who paint? Who painted the ship?

PELLEGRINO:

The people.

NASH:

So all the time you were there they were painting and fixing up the ship?

PELLEGRINO:

All the time when comes to the people are going, see, need to pain and need to clean.

NASH:

Oh, between trips they always had to change.

PELLEGRINO:

Sure, because when come, they had the immigrant, and they want everything clean. Because, you know, when they come to the people, a few clean. They have to go on and say no clean. I tell the truth. See? Especially, especially different place.

NASH:

And . . .

PELLEGRINO:

And they stay six day. After six day, get off. And they come, my cousin come down with the, with the little boat, come next to the ship, see. And they bring bananas and bring a lot of things.

NASH:

So you slept on the ship, right? You didn't sleep in . . .

PELLEGRINO:

On the ship, six days. No sick, nothing. Just because they need, you see, forty-two thousand, forced them in.

NASH:

Of all different groups, you mean.

PELLEGRINO:

That's right. When come over here, I live Division Street.

NASH:

In New York, Manhattan.

PELLEGRINO:

New York. Because my cousin send a lot of money for to come back over here. Because no more money for to come back the other side. My cousin Sam, thirteen thousand liras.

NASH:

How much is that in dollars?

PELLEGRINO:

Well, the time. And the rest I put myself the money. And I stay New York, but I paid the bill, my cousin. I finished paying my cousin, my husband comes over here and the work, in the night come back to New York. She no want no more come back New York. She want to stay over here, but to please me, come back Staten Island together, after one year, just one year and they come back over here.

NASH:

You stayed one year in New York, and then . . .

PELLEGRINO:

Paid the bill first, believe me. Because the first one, now two, I paid it, the last money, the last penny my cousin, because my cousin very good, send the money, and me paid the last money and paid, make to come, American money, how much. And the American money, I paid a thousand dollars, American money.

NASH:

That was a lot of money at that time. It still is.

PELLEGRINO:

Paid a thousand dollar, see, paid, the (?), nice job, work, me and my husband paid the bill, come back Staten Island.

NASH:

What happened to your children while you worked? Who would take care of your children?

PELLEGRINO:

Oh, take care, I teach very good myself. I live Division Street. Next to me the Jew, very good. Jew, the family, see, Goldman, the name. I give the key, they take care very good, Jews. Very good. And the children got three (?). One married and two single. She like to come every Thursday in my house, and they eat spaghetti. ( Ms. Nash laughs ) Yeah. And this, after come back to Staten Island. I stay now forty-three years Staten Island.

NASH:

When did you first start working at the dressmaker? You worked in New York.

PELLEGRINO:

All the time. This my trade. From the time seven years old born. Very, very fine, very fine. I don't want to call myself. After, I show you, see, the lot of wedding dress make.

NASH:

I understand that you make, you have granddaughters that are pregnant now and you're sewing all their dresses. Is that right?

PELLEGRINO:

This, inside, see, everybody when, see, learn something, need, this I want to do. No learn somebody, no. Learn self. She learn self, everybody. I no taught myself. Everybody want to do something, need, see, very good, see. "I want to do this."

NASH:

And that's what you wanted to do.

PELLEGRINO:

Si. Coat, dress, shirt, suit man, men's suit. I make a, I show you. I make Willie, my son, a suit. Yeah.

NASH:

When did you begin, actually begin work, working in New York in a factory? What year was that?

PELLEGRINO:

I go see in the factory, a very good factory.

NASH:

What was the name of it? Do you remember?

PELLEGRINO:

( disturbance to the microphone ) The name? I don't know. I don't know the name. Mangone. Mangone, and after see the boss take casino, very good factory. See, because I like when I see coat, not cheap, very expensive, very expensive. The suit in the cut. The boss is, he's crazy, because I'm not in my hands. They're small in my hands, see.

NASH:

How much did they pay you when you first started?

PELLEGRINO:

Oh, at the time, forty-two dollars a week.

NASH:

Forty-two dollars a week? That's a lot of money then. What year was that?

PELLEGRINO:

In a (?), in '48. ( voice off mike )

NASH:

Oh, yeah. The dressmakers did . . .

PELLEGRINO:

No. Cutting the suit for cut and the suit belonged 48, union.

NASH:

48, Number 48.

PELLEGRINO:

The dress, 89. The cut, Local 49, the dress.

NASH:

The Cutter's Local 49. Uh-huh.

PELLEGRINO:

The cut and the suit, 48. ( break in tape )

NASH:

All right, Mrs. Pellegrino, in 1923, you came to this country and you worked for a year on Division Street.

PELLEGRINO:

Division Street until I paid the bill of my cousin. Finished the bill, paid a thousand dollars and come back Staten Island. And the (?), the customer. Anything, dress, coat, suit. Because make everything, and the good work, and got a lot of customers, too.

NASH:

How many hours . . .

PELLEGRINO:

School teach, a lot of school teach in the Great Kills. And (?). Well, they're all the time inside.

NASH:

How many hours a day did you actually sew?

PELLEGRINO:

Sew steady night and day, night and day. Too much for me, because I got a lot of customers, too. And the time of the Depression make thirty dollars. At the time of the Depression, thirty dollars. It's a lot of money. Very good.

NASH:

So you actually did the custom-made work for many years.

PELLEGRINO:

Many years. And after come this ( disturbance to the microphone ) Ninth Avenue, 36th Street, Ninth Avenue, 36th Street.

NASH:

In New York City?

PELLEGRINO:

In New York. 356, the number there, I remember (?). In New York. And work, twenty-one years.

NASH:

Is that Mangone's?

PELLEGRINO:

All the time, this ( she pronounces in Italian ) contractobre. This case, this big house, the Mangone's. This contractobre. And after, see, I'm going over there, the day the New Year is. And the day the New Year is, retire.

NASH:

New Year's Day.

PELLEGRINO:

New Year's night. (addressing her granddaughter) You remember, Joanna, you small? I worked twenty-one years. See, (?), I only got enough money. They give the pension, because I reached sixty-five, I reached sixty-five in September. Many times, December. And stayed two years, no give the pay me, and me paid the dues, too. ( disturbance to the microphone ) ( break in tape ) The Valentine's Day receive the first check. ( she laughs ) See . . .

NASH:

You loved it.

PELLEGRINO:

Sixty-five, sixty-five dollars at the time, see. Now eight eighty-five. ( disturbance to the microphone ) And a lot of people, she want to give to me more money. I don't want more money. I want to stay. But this job meets the name, the job, (?). And I no care, it will last. I want to stay over there, because the boss used to look me for some time see (?), and the time of me son, look my son next to my eyes. And the boss look me, "Come on, come on, come on." Change, but change my, me, see.

NASH:

This is when your son died in the war.

PELLEGRINO:

For me, see, because the boss help to me the time, help me, because, see, just look the (?). And the boss, "Come on Dora, come on Dora," see. And me change my mind. And no forget because my son all the time (?). ( disturbance to the microphone ) ( break in tape )

NASH:

Mrs. Pellegrino, you had four children. Would you like to talk a little bit about them?

PELLEGRINO:

Yes. When I come this country again, the children . . . ( she pauses ) Now he's Joe, the first, nine. I sent him to school in Italy.

NASH:

Your oldest, you sent to school in Italy.

PELLEGRINO:

Two son, because this book big, and one of the seven, the third class, come to school, Joseph, the first. And the other one, second class. When they come over here, very smart. Four years of school, skip every month, every month skip, four years of school, 1928, graduate public school, gone (?) the school, too, high school. The Sammy come regular school because he's small, and the little Jamie, too, the other one. Sammy, the two graduate high school, four years already. Sammy I send Stuyvesant High School. (?), (?) High School, three (?), Sammy Stuyvesant High School, in New York.

NASH:

Stuyvesant.

PELLEGRINO:

Yeah. Because I like it, the children got a good education. I can't send to college because of the Depression. The Depression very bad. Can't send. And me told all the time, all the time, "Son, bad the school in the long coat, and no come (?) the other kids, because see I remember myself, the sharp, I can't take the pain of their hands." I think you understand this proverb, yeah? ( disturbance to the microphone )

NASH:

Wait, could you say it again?

PELLEGRINO:

The fork, when she's sharp, when she's sharp, she (?), see. I can't take the pain, because I can't do. The pain when she write take the sharp, see. You figure this when we say, you understand? And the night children listening all the time. "Son, the education more better. Son, the education more better." All four I send high school, all four. Joe, too, he wants to make airplane tools, the airplane. They had (?). I sent Trenton, Trenton, New Jersey, I sent to school, fifty dollars a week. Well, I'm making more money. And Popwork. They trade one, trade (?) with the other one. I'm making. And Sammy, Sammy, three months, graduated Joseph. ( disturbance to the microphone, break in tape )

NASH:

Mrs. Pellegrino is showing me a paper cutter, and on it is inscribed Joseph Pellegrino, September 18, 1940, Luscone School of Aeronautics. Right?

PELLEGRINO:

Let's see. The airplane, the first part of the airplane end. The first part, no machine. And the day after, pass the machine, the first part my son end. And Willie, too. Fifty dollars a week. See, school and the board. And after Joseph gone three, two gone in the army, started the war. And Joseph goes, too. The boss, he no want to give Joseph because I need my son. See, my son crazy for the America, crazy. In the mind, he got America, "It's the Japanese. I want to kill the Japanese." ( she laughs ) See? I know I'm a (?) myself, my children, very smart. But America crazy, Joseph, especially Joseph, The other one yes, but Joseph the first, America, America. America this, America this, America this. ( she laughs ) But the geographia, you understand geographia see, and got in the mind. (?), my son Joseph. The other one, Joseph more. Oh, come on. Oh, my. The America got this, the America got this, America got this. Everything America, see. And then after say is coming the (?). The boss don't want to send, three times, to Joseph. Joseph go. The other two in army. Sammy mechanic, the ground Sammy. You know, do something, airplane, the ground. Willie, (?), ship come, and many ship come back, the other one, the second. Joseph, in the airplane, machine gun. The tail, (?). The tail. Junior, he was, bad news, this person. What do you call this person? (?), see. And the (?) come back to work, and they see the people, lot of people, they look at me, and me, I don't know nothing. Because I can't read English. Because I have no time. And the next day comes to the family, the wife and (?). Just, (?). December, December, the better news. It's gone. The whole group, just one, come back home. The rest, (Italian). And the last ones. And this is the life. The wife (?), too. For three months the girl, and got a daughter. The daughter, now she's twenty-eight years. The mother very good for me, and the daughter, too. Me respect, they give respect for me. For me, to everybody. And this is the life for me.

NASH:

So you've actually given a lot to the United States since you've come here. You've given a lot to the United States. ( disturbance to the microphone )

PELLEGRINO:

Well, I like very much to stay over here, see.